|
|
Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 18, 2022 12:34:48 GMT
Don't think so
|
|
Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,661
|
Post by Bongo Heracles on Oct 18, 2022 12:45:37 GMT
I was going to say 'anyone who thinks voice acting doesnt matter in Bayonetta doesnt remember how bad Loki was' but... yeesh.. Bayo isnt much better, tbpfh
|
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 18, 2022 12:52:27 GMT
I'd actually forgotten about Loki, somehow. The annoying shit. But you're right, his voice acting was terrible.
And based on that clip maybe replacing her VA was for the best...
|
|
|
|
Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 18, 2022 12:56:30 GMT
Naughty!
|
|
|
|
Post by Vandelay on Oct 18, 2022 13:31:09 GMT
I've been playing the first Bayonetta recently for the first time, not having played the series before. I would say the voice is pretty much perfect for the tone they are going for and that the VO is contributing a lot to the character. Whether that tone is good or bad is up for debate (I'm quite liking it in a cheesy, exploitation sort of way), but it is clear that the voice work is doing some of the heavy lifting.
She should be earning a lot more than the measley 4k she was offered. Quite honestly, with a series where the main thing people probably know it for is the Bayonetta character and the voice work is a big part of that, she should be in her rights to be asking for a percentage of sales, much like actors in TV and film.
Seems like this an industry wide problem, where VO artists are treated like shit. Seems odd for many here to be seemingly thinking that she is out of order for publicly calling them out for this.
|
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 18, 2022 13:43:44 GMT
I dunno, something just seems off about how she's speaking up.
The first video, okay, not sure it's the most professional way to raise it up but fine, there are points there I can consider.
But each subsequent video has just made me feel less and less sympathy because she's adding nothing new to her points. And again, the way in which she's brought this up does make me think "yeah maybe I can see why they don't want to work with her".
|
|
|
|
Post by uiruki on Oct 18, 2022 13:49:31 GMT
I’ll be playing this one in Japanese, after playing the first two (and frankly, most Platinum games) in English. It’s a combination of the second game’s terrible record of getting Americans to do British accents and the fact that JP Kellams isn’t part of the project. He made the English scripts sound like they were the “original” language.
And Kiefer as Solid Snake was absolutely Kojima’s starfucking coming to the fore. Much like Bayonetta, the Japanese actor didn’t change. I do think he could have done a decent job if they’d paid him to actually read his lines rather than handing them all over to Troy Baker.
|
|
|
|
Post by JuniorFE on Oct 18, 2022 14:02:00 GMT
I personally never had a problem with Taylor calling Platinum out on this. Intentionally lowballing to either push the actor away or save money but still get the job done is bad behavior, and should be criticized.
My problem lies with the way she did all of this. She broke NDA, allegedly called out Hale (I'm saying allegedly because I've read that that part could have been misinterpreted), acted as though she owned the character herself (that's not the kind of claim you make unless you're, like, Charles Martinet as Mario, even the Sonic VAs never blew up like this afaik) and apparently acted increasingly unhinged over the course of her videos, all of which is very unprofessional behavior that at the very least burned any remaining bridges with Platinum and might even have torpedoed her career in general, worse than simply losing the role would have done.
Furthermore, if the boycott she's calling for does affect sales noticeably (negatively, that is), it's almost guaranteed that it's not the ones that made the VA decision that'll feel it, but the grunt that can be turfed out and replaced with three others the next day, who had nothing to do with it.
That's not even getting into the possibility (which I'll admit is just me theorizing at this point) that she was paid less because the plan was for there to be multiple Bayonettas in the game, of which she'd only play one, and the reason that was never publicly said was because it'd be a massive spoiler for the game (multiple universes, people dying etc.)
Tl;dr For me it's not the call-out that's bad but the method, and there's still things we don't know and might never know about the situation. As more info emerges I'm open to changing my stance, but from what we know she's making a very valid complaint in a very wrong way IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 18, 2022 14:23:23 GMT
Not even a fan of Bayonetta's design anyway to be honest. Always preferred Jeanne and she's much cooler
|
|
Derblington
Junior Member
Did you know I have a girlfriend
Posts: 2,143
|
Post by Derblington on Oct 18, 2022 14:46:33 GMT
Quite honestly, with a series where the main thing people probably know it for is the Bayonetta character and the voice work is a big part of that, she should be in her rights to be asking for a percentage of sales, much like actors in TV and film. Games aren’t TV and film though. She didn’t create the character, design the look of the character or animate the character (or even mo-cap in this case). She contributes one part of many. There are many people that do these things and they won’t get the same thing that you’re suggesting she should receive. Similarly, there are many contractor roles in gaming at many levels and none of them will receive anything near what you’re suggesting, for far more work (albeit also more hidden). Games are very complicated and are not entirely comparable to those other media. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 14:49:17 GMT
I was with her until she claimed Bayonetta as her own and started saying Hale should never dare to sign a poster or anything as she has sole claim to the character.
Looks like she was treated shitty, but handling this very poorly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vandelay on Oct 18, 2022 15:12:01 GMT
Games aren’t TV and film though. She didn’t create the character, design the look of the character or animate the character (or even mo-cap in this case). She contributes one part of many. There are many people that do these things and they won’t get the same thing that you’re suggesting she should receive. An actor in a visual medium doesn't create these things in isolation themselves either. There will still be artist creating concepts of a look, costume designers, the director, the writer(s), choreographers for dances or fights, etc. All those are contributing to creating the character, but actors are still compensated appropriately (arguably too much). The fact that many seem to think a voice actor is insignificant is kind of proving the point that they they are treated badly. Even if we accept that they are just thrown into a studio for a couple hours with some lines they haven't seen before with no context at all and that the pay is appropriate for that kind of work, shouldn't the response be that they should have more involvement in bringing the characters to life, especially if they are the leading character in an ongoing franchise? |
|
Derblington
Junior Member
Did you know I have a girlfriend
Posts: 2,143
|
Post by Derblington on Oct 18, 2022 15:33:37 GMT
I think there’s some difference in that in the movie world a lot of the time the costume designer, etc, will work to creating something for/with a specific actor. It’s not the same in games - an actor wouldn’t suggest a clothing preference/style, or behavioural trait, that they can bring to the character because there are so many layers that are already complete by the time they step into the booth (or mo-cap suit). The cost is too great to change much by that stage. A screen actor plays a much bigger role in creating the character even after the script, etc, is complete because they are them.
It’s just not the same in games.
There are some exceptions where some actors do contribute a bit more, like with Naughty Dog, but then the actor is also contributing far more throughout the process than in the case with Bayo (and the vast majority of games). These cases exist but are more rare, and even then they typically contribute character movements or scene ideas. It’s not their face or fashion style that makes it to the title.
Edit:
It’s complex.
In this case there’s a lot that we simply don’t know so it’s pointless trying to pick sides. Should Actors be paid more in general? Maybe. 4k for 4 hours work sounds pretty good to me, to be honest. I need to do a hell of a lot more for the same.
I don’t really care about the surrounding issues of gigs being infrequent, etc. It’s the nature of the job she’s choosing. She’s not unique to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by brainbird on Oct 18, 2022 15:38:32 GMT
Do we know how much she was paid for the first two games? She possibly got more or less the same amount.
It's normal to expect a payrise for the third game after you've successfully helped create the character.
However it's also entirely possible Platinum Games thought it's going to be the same deal for the same job. And suddenly you've got a problem.
We don't know how the negotiations went on but it's safe to say Taylor hurt mostly herself by addressing it on Twitter the way she did.
|
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 18, 2022 15:48:11 GMT
Yeah, there's a good conversation about whether voice actors are valued enough, but exactly how much their contribution is varies from project to project.
In something like Bayonetta everything is there to string together a series of fights and set pieces whilst being cool and serving cheesecake. Not sure the VA is really needed in that process.
Plus with turnaround times to create set pieces, in something like Bayonetta there's not going to be much scope for improvisation beyond changing inflections of voice. And frankly it's not like they require Bayonetta to really display much emotion beyond being saucy and confident.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 18, 2022 16:18:16 GMT
We have no idea how much voice direction or input she had
I saw a clip of Michael Ironside talking about his role as Sam Fisher a while ago and he had quite a bit of input into that character (including giving him a daughter). He was also quite adamant that he was Sam Fisher
I think voice acting is pretty crucial when it comes to people connecting with a character in a game. It's an important role. If The Last of Us was exactly the same game with terrible voice acting, I don't think it would be as well regarded. If the graphics weren't as good but the voice acting was strong, that could still work out well enough
|
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 18, 2022 16:31:29 GMT
It's true, I don't know how much involvement they would have had, but I suspect Platinum put the voice acting quite near the end of the production pipeline.
The Last of Us is a very different beast to Bayonetta. in that the game is built around the characters.
The combat in that game could be rubbish but it would still work because the focus is on the narrative and characters, and their relationship to each other.
(I assume, tbh not played it but that's the impression I get)
Bayonetta would not work at all if the action and combat wasnt fluid and spectacular. But conversely it doesn't really need deep characters or emotional heft. The characters are there to look cool, and that's pretty much it.
Sometimes games will have very well written characters and amazing gameplay and action and amazing graphics, but they're pretty rare.
I'm not convinced voice acting is necessarily critical, some of the games that I've felt most emotionally involved in are back in the 16 and 32 bit days, where voice acting was either impossible or ropey. Voice acting can help, absolutely, but I don't think it's essential.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 18, 2022 16:35:45 GMT
But would Bayo have sold as well if she wasn't in the trailers going 'Ohh saucy!'?
She's probably more responsible for sales than the combat mechanics I would guess
The point was about voice acting in games in general though. Some people are quite dismissive of it
|
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 18, 2022 16:44:37 GMT
That's a fair point, was only speaking from my point of view I suppose. I can't actually remember the trailer.
I was interested mostly because Kamiya previously made Devil May Cry and Okami, and this looked like it might be similar.
Still not sure her voice acting is anything special, it's a pretty general naughty teacher vibe, which I get the appeal of, but I sincerely doubt Taylor had much input into anything regarding the character until it reached recording.
|
|
|
|
Post by baihu1983 on Oct 18, 2022 17:46:22 GMT
I have never really understood the angst about it. Sutherland is great and, themetically, its a different character anyway. I dont get what the problem is. He said about 10 words |
|
|
|
Post by baihu1983 on Oct 18, 2022 18:33:47 GMT
Looks like it was 3-4K per session and would have being 5 sessions.
|
|
|
|
Post by dfunked on Oct 18, 2022 18:51:22 GMT
Blimey... And she's complaining about not being able to afford to run a car with what she was offered? Think the sympathy for her is going to disappear pretty fucking quickly if this is true.
|
|
|
|
Post by baihu1983 on Oct 18, 2022 18:55:06 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 18:59:26 GMT
Not looking good for her.
|
|
|
|
Post by baihu1983 on Oct 18, 2022 19:01:19 GMT
But that's different to the scheduling conflict Platinum originally claimed.
|
|
|
|
Post by JuniorFE on Oct 18, 2022 19:09:25 GMT
Woof. So the 4k was apparently for a cameo and was offered after she had already rejected the 15-20k full role sum. Not looking good for her if it's true, especially considering she basically made it seem like 4k was the best offer she got when it clearly wasn't...
Doesn't change the fact that VAs in general can have it rough but a case built on (what seems to be) misinformation at best does not a change spearhead...
|
|
|
|
Post by baihu1983 on Oct 18, 2022 19:18:05 GMT
All parties are looking bad.
She's now saying she wants nothing to do with it anymore and just wants to focus on her theatre work.
|
|
|
|
Post by JuniorFE on Oct 18, 2022 19:18:45 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by JuniorFE on Oct 18, 2022 19:20:02 GMT
All parties are looking bad. She's now saying she wants nothing to do with it anymore and just wants to focus on her theatre work. Even if she did still want something to do with it I'm pretty sure she didn't leave any bridges unburnt  |
|
|
|
Post by anthonyuk on Oct 18, 2022 19:24:21 GMT
Bayonetta, despite its success must surely be a niche game in the grand scheme. Especially when it's exclusive to Switch this time round. I saw this inclination more of a good will gesture towards hardcore gamers, than something Nintendo expected to break sales records.
I just read that the Niko Bellic voice actor from GTA4 was paid £100k by Rockstar, though that was for 15 months worth of voice and motion capture work.
I wouldn't mind a 6 figure "living wage" for 16 hours work to be honest.
|
|
