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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 20, 2023 20:45:00 GMT
What I don't understand is how they managed to make Thrawn look so much like a Smurfed Elon Musk
Ah, new page, my old nemesis. We meet again.
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Ahsoka
Sept 20, 2023 21:06:06 GMT
Post by Reviewer on Sept 20, 2023 21:06:06 GMT
He doesn’t look or sound like I imagined, other than he’s blue and wears white. Looks like a middle aged cosplayer who let the middle aged spread happen.
Yes I know the guy did the cartoon voice, no I never watched that.
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Post by simple on Sept 20, 2023 22:03:23 GMT
A lot of fun visual stuff this week. Thrawn’s exile legion, the bandits, the Eroks, Macbeth’s witches.
Still a strong sense that it assumes we already know who all these people are, what their motivations are and how they got here though.
Plus Thrawn really does look like Elon Musk.
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aubergine
Junior Member
I must get over myself
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Post by aubergine on Sept 20, 2023 22:46:01 GMT
I’d assumed Ashoka / Thrawn were archnemeses, so was surprised when he said he’d look up her Instagram.
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Ahsoka
Sept 20, 2023 23:25:53 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 20, 2023 23:25:53 GMT
Can’t wait for them to face off next week
I think I’m more interested in that bearded ex-Jedi’s mission than a generic stop the big baddie thing the main plot is following. Its going to be sad when his apprentice kills him.
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zephro
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Ahsoka
Sept 21, 2023 16:24:09 GMT
Post by zephro on Sept 21, 2023 16:24:09 GMT
I still feel like it's got an appropriate amount of back-story and explanation, without falling into the trap of fucking lore dumps. Ahsoka, ex-Jedi, seen some shit, kinda withdrawn, isn't exactly a Jedi. Titus Pullo, ex-Jedi, seen some shit, isn't exactly a Sith. Thrawn is cold and calculating, demonstrated through both the acting and wanting all the information on his new opponent. Witches of Dathomir, weird mystic bullshit, honestly it's probably more fleshed out than the Jedi in A New Hope.
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Ahsoka
Sept 21, 2023 16:28:52 GMT
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Post by Reviewer on Sept 21, 2023 16:28:52 GMT
Problem is that all the excitement/interest is based around them finding some Jedi guy that most people know nothing about.
He also disappears by episode 7 as does Thrawn.
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Post by khanivor on Sept 22, 2023 3:36:58 GMT
Man, how can such a shallow pew-pew space wizard show need so many footnotes Because it’s largely fan service to 13 seasons of cartoons. They (probably, rightly) seem to identify their audience as mainly 25 year-olds. I work with a bunch of kids who are right around twenty years old. The ones that grew up watching The Clone Wars are pigs in shit right now. I really enjoy talking Ashoka with them. Watched most of Rebels and a smattering of CW. Am a life long SW fan so have, ya know, read articles and synopses and have a good enough idea to get much of the wider context Saying that, I think this show is really good regardless. Every single character on the screen is always getting more fleshed out. There are many interesting storylines, arcs and suggested arcs going on. It’s compelling story telling. It’s the fantastical ying to Andor’s yang, (although Andor is still far superior, by way of it being on the best things ever put on on a TV screen) Latest ep also really put Filoni’s apprenticeship to Lucas out on the table to be enjoyed. The charm of an out of place character interacting with aliens and alien cultures, the little touches that make the world one you want to be part of; both my daughter and I want one of them dog beasts We are enjoying it. Sues enjoying it, even with her SW frame of reference being all the D+ shows we wait a few days after broadcast, till we are together, to watch together, starting with ep1 of Mando. She’s seen most of the movies, but they aren’t really her prime frame of reference. I mean, she’s watched something like two and a half times more hours of SW TV than there are movies A lot of you guys are going to be so salty as to become parodies of yourself when you’re having to cope with the generation who grew up on SW told through TV series. Having to maintain the grumpy ‘this is all shit made for morons and it’s super shit’ while you watch Every. Fucking. Episode must be tiring. We are all old bastards now, pretty much. That doesn’t mean you have to be a grump tosspot just for appearances sakes Curl the pinky back down to the side of the cup and just fucking enjoy the beverage
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aubergine
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I must get over myself
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Ahsoka
Sept 22, 2023 12:54:35 GMT
Post by aubergine on Sept 22, 2023 12:54:35 GMT
I think I’m being fair with it. I thought the first three episodes were less than great, boring even, but noted the fourth, fifth and sixth have been much better. I’d also note that they’ve answered, in the later episodes lore dumps, what was a huge problem for me in the first episodes. To understand why people dislike it you have to see it from the pov of people who’ve not seen the cartoons, and ask whether the show could not have presented just a little more of the relevant information upfront.
So, in episode 6 we learned that, a long time ago, in a galaxy far away, someone hitched a ride on a migrating space whale to the Star Wars galaxy, then something something.
In the first episode we learned that, more recently, a bad guy and a good guy got whisked away to that other galaxy somehow.
Had the show established that first part first, it would have made THE EXISTENCE OF AN ANCIENT MAP LEADING TO A GUY WHO LEFT LAST YEAR seem less like totally stupid cartoon bullshit, which has understandably kept casual viewers at arms length from this ineptly handled narrative. Instead, they explained it in the 6th episode, showing that it’s… actually a good story, just badly told. Or, that they are assuming that viewers are steeped in the cartoons, which is a really foolhardy and unnecessary way to transition to live-action. There’s no good reason what the series couldn’t have predicted and served both kinds of viewers very effectively.
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myk
New Member
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Ahsoka
Sept 22, 2023 13:06:26 GMT
Post by myk on Sept 22, 2023 13:06:26 GMT
yeah, I think they could have started at episode 4 or 5 and nothing of value would have been lost
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zephro
Junior Member
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Post by zephro on Sept 22, 2023 13:19:12 GMT
Genuinely don't understand good narrative being, tell you all the background right at the beginning. I'm struggling to think of anything good that works that way.
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Bongo Heracles
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Ahsoka
Sept 22, 2023 13:25:10 GMT
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 22, 2023 13:25:10 GMT
I honestly think it would be worse if I were fully up with all the backstory and lore. It’s still fundamentally as boring as shit and I can’t see how that wouldn’t be a disappointment to someone who cared about these characters.
It’s surely not giving you anything other than the occasional opportunity to point at the screen and shout ‘hey, look! It’s Blooba Planetfucker!’
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Post by simple on Sept 22, 2023 14:19:11 GMT
Maybe instead of characters doing lore dumps early on to benefit the casuals they could have a some opening text. Maybe text that crawls across the stars.
In a rare case for a streaming show it does appear to have a better back half than front for a change to be fair.
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aubergine
Junior Member
I must get over myself
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Ahsoka
Sept 22, 2023 15:02:40 GMT
Post by aubergine on Sept 22, 2023 15:02:40 GMT
Genuinely don't understand good narrative being, tell you all the background right at the beginning. I'm struggling to think of anything good that works that way. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_film_seriesAlso, each Star Wars movie literally starts with a text dump of background. I mean, come on. You are getting scene-setting, which happens at the start, mixed up with dramatic questions and world-building. If, for example, a character in the show explicitly said “How can an ancient map lead to a guy who disappeared last year?” you have a dramatic question. But none of the audience surrogates thought this was weird at all - probably because they already knew - but in crafting the narrative the writer should have anticipated the audience might be very distracted by this, as it superficially seems like exactly the sort of inane fantasy shit and bad writing we might expect after Boba Fett and 7/11 Star Wars movies. If the cartoon fans are learning new stuff now about the whalebone planet, that’s world-building. If they already knew why Thrawn was there, that’s background. The narrative could present the why of his being there as a mystery to intrigue the audience, but it doesn’t. It’s just unexplained stuff. It’s rarely hard to do a lore dump. When the lore came it was just a line or two from episode 6. LotR needed like ten minutes of Cate Blanchett explaining stuff at the start and about 25 minutes of Elrond explaining it later, and started each of the three movies with flashbacks that explain stuff.
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zephro
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Ahsoka
Sept 22, 2023 15:18:01 GMT
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Post by zephro on Sept 22, 2023 15:18:01 GMT
The lord of the rings films aren't as good as the books, partly as the significance of everything is spelled out so much.
The star wars trawls are deeply vague and not reading them barely matters.
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aubergine
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I must get over myself
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Ahsoka
Sept 22, 2023 15:35:01 GMT
Post by aubergine on Sept 22, 2023 15:35:01 GMT
The lord of the rings films aren't as good as the books, partly as the significance of everything is spelled out so much. The star wars trawls are deeply vague and not reading them barely matters. Riiiight.
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zephro
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Ahsoka
Sept 23, 2023 1:18:38 GMT
Post by zephro on Sept 23, 2023 1:18:38 GMT
So, world building in general is immaterial. Good world building comes from narrative, it extrapolates outwards from narrative and character. But it's essentially unimportant. Fury Road is a great movie because at no point do any characters explain the world, they merely inhabit a world and react to it accordingly. Their reactions and behaviours informs you about that world, via acting. But leaves almost all of it unexplained. They live in a hell hole isn't that enough.
Lord of the Rings the book, the ring becomes important through characters interacting not through being told it's exact significance. Gandalf thinks its important as all fuck, you get that immediately but the exact reasons why only occur much later. Marlow does not know what's been going on in the Congo, it becomes apparent through meeting Kurtz. Though Kurtz not being reliable the exact happenings are not clear, but it's unimportant as the motives of the characters are clear. Or become clear at least, or actually with Marlow they start clear but they are false and become muddied.
So original Star Wars, the scroll at the beginning, is light. There's an evil empire, there's a rebellion. It doesn't spell much out other than the fucking obvious that the Empire are baddies, which minus the scroll would be immediately obvious the first time you see Vader. The scroll is basically pointless. The Jedi are just some mystic pricks, with cool laser swords. There is 1 sentence about "The Clone Wars", the details remain unimportant it just serves to tell you Obi Wan saw some dark ass shit. Then once you see Empire, so did Darth. This stuff is only revealed to the viewer when it becomes apparent to the characters (well Luke mostly).
Whether it's been boring or not, which is a side issue, this show basically said straight out "These character's friends got lost somewhere with a proper wrongun, other characters are concerned about returning, due to being a wrongun". Sabine is clearly motivated by seeing her friend. Ahsoka is a bit more ambiguous, her motivations become more clear later on. The baddies like the wrongun coming back. Though Titus Pullo it turns out is also ambiguous like Ahsoka herself. The backstory isn't really clarifying, the characters are currently motivated by what they're doing and that is enough.
TLDR; this is why Villeneuve's Dune is infinitely better than Lynch's Dune. Show don't tell.
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aubergine
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I must get over myself
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Ahsoka
Sept 23, 2023 2:39:38 GMT
Post by aubergine on Sept 23, 2023 2:39:38 GMT
I think that you are constantly seeing examples of great world-building without realising it, because that is how great world-building works. Fury Road is LOADED with world-building throughout. The culture of the War Boys, eg Chroming their teeth and screaming “witness me!” The culture and architecture of Immortan Joe’s home base, the designs of the different factions who turn up (eg was it The Bullet Maker?) that tells us something intriguing about this world we have a window into. This is what raises it above just “a car chase movie” into something stunningly good, it all hints at a richness and rarely has to resort to explicit explanation.
How the world ended is not relevant to the plot here, only that it did. That’s background. That’s why the film doesn’t have to spend time explaining stuff and is the same for the previous Mad Max films.
LotR sets up the stakes in the first ten minutes flashback because it works better for film and was the best choice. The books do some things better than the films, the films do some things better than the books; the books are not films, the films are not books.
I think you are wilfully misunderstanding what I’ve said about Ahsoka leaving out information vital to understanding or embracing the plot. This is not the same thing.
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myk
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Ahsoka
Sept 23, 2023 2:40:14 GMT
Post by myk on Sept 23, 2023 2:40:14 GMT
Spicediver fan edit of Lynch's Dune > Villeneuve's Dune > theatrical cut of Lynch's Dune
At least until part 2 comes out.
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Ahsoka
Sept 23, 2023 6:46:17 GMT
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Post by Reviewer on Sept 23, 2023 6:46:17 GMT
The first three episodes could’ve easily been turned into a space crawl and the whole thing about a map could’ve gone as it was stupid. Episodes since have been better in terms of action and are very watchable but I know I’m never going to rewatch this.
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Ahsoka
Sept 24, 2023 8:32:56 GMT
Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 24, 2023 8:32:56 GMT
Spicediver fan edit of Lynch's Dune > Villeneuve's Dune > theatrical cut of Lynch's Dune At least until part 2 comes out. Started this on Youtube, but the fact that they've gone with *three* intro monologues isn't a great start (princess, fremen rev mother (why??), guild report).
Seems like a bad decision to add in the fremen mother one when it's not really necessary at that point.
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Ahsoka
Sept 27, 2023 15:42:13 GMT
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Post by neilch on Sept 27, 2023 15:42:13 GMT
The last couple of episodes are showing what we could have had as the basis of a sequel trilogy.
Although Sabine Wren is an awful character who acts like a teenager going through a rebellious phase and won’t talk about literally anything that is going on
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Ahsoka
Sept 27, 2023 20:27:20 GMT
Post by oldschoolsavant on Sept 27, 2023 20:27:20 GMT
As the kids say these days....mid.
Quite obvious linear movement before we get to the cliffhangers for next week's finale. And when Pullo's teasing is more intriguing than the main Thrawn story, yup, something went wrong because we're back on Leia, C3PO, Skywalkers, and trying to tie together all the loose threads for that minority fanbase, whereas the thought of something new has the other side of the fanbase somewhat excited.
Just when progress seemed to be on the horizon, bam, REFERENCES AND CANON. And with Ray's passing, I'm concerned with what they'll do - handwave away or a recast, neither of which feel satisfactory.
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Ahsoka
Sept 27, 2023 21:28:17 GMT
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Post by Reviewer on Sept 27, 2023 21:28:17 GMT
The last few episodes have been a lot better though. At least there’s action that’s not terrible instead of the standing still and talking slowly. No idea what was going on with the direction in the first 3 episodes.
Not sure they needed the 3PO fan service, especially as he sounded like an old man doing the voice (for obvious reasons but still).
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Ahsoka
Sept 27, 2023 21:33:39 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 27, 2023 21:33:39 GMT
Ever since the galaxy hop things have improved incredibly.
I hope we get to see where the bad Jedi is going. His quest almost sounds like it could’ve been a show of its own.
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patrick
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Ahsoka
Sept 27, 2023 22:54:04 GMT
Post by patrick on Sept 27, 2023 22:54:04 GMT
Baylan is the only character I have any interesting in rooting for. Everyone else is so uninteresting.
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aubergine
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I must get over myself
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Ahsoka
Sept 28, 2023 4:04:26 GMT
Post by aubergine on Sept 28, 2023 4:04:26 GMT
And with Ray's passing, I'm concerned with what they'll do - handwave away or a recast, neither of which feel satisfactory. Well, bad guys in this series have a habit of getting disfigured and buried under masks or prosthetics and a different voice actor, so if they didn’t always intend for him to be gobbled up by the big bad he’s looking for, expect him to be at least splashed with its stomach acid in some hastily-added cgi next episode.
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Blue_Mike
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Ahsoka
Sept 28, 2023 16:46:26 GMT
Post by Blue_Mike on Sept 28, 2023 16:46:26 GMT
Someone translated the text on Baylan Skoll's wrist device from Aurebesh into English and the result was either a big plot thing or just a nice little easter egg.
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Bongo Heracles
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Ahsoka
Sept 28, 2023 18:29:51 GMT
Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 28, 2023 18:29:51 GMT
It’s surely not giving you anything other than the occasional opportunity to point at the screen and shout ‘hey, look! It’s Blooba Planetfucker!’ They really went big on it this week. And, man, Jedi are the worst. Dragging the hermit crab people into their nonsense and get their caravans all dinged up, the selfish twats.
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aubergine
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I must get over myself
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Ahsoka
Sept 29, 2023 2:13:52 GMT
Post by aubergine on Sept 29, 2023 2:13:52 GMT
Someone translated the text on Baylan Skoll's wrist device from Aurebesh into English and the result was either a big plot thing or just a nice little easter egg.
(Showrunner) “Hey guys, where did I leave my checklist of needless cameos?”
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