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Post by damagedinc on May 11, 2023 13:39:53 GMT
Getting these artifacts is a right chore. Going one end of the map to the other just isn't doing it for me. Loved exploring, loved opening it all up but going from one side to the other now just not for me.
Not sure if I'll finish it which is frustrating as so close to the end.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on May 11, 2023 13:54:10 GMT
Yeah, that's the thing really. I wouldn't have minded a lack of fast travel, if the map was more of a joy to navigate. But it isn't; you're just going down the same corridors a million times to get the doodads you need to finish the game.
And I did finish it! I wouldn't have bothered if I didn't basically like the game overall! But that last bit in particular was more of a chore than it needed to be.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on May 11, 2023 14:43:21 GMT
Honestly, I don't know how anyone played this the first time round without the hint system. I was lost for a good chunk of my playtime and I had a vague sense of where I should be headed.
I genuinely think I would have given up if the hint system wasn't there.
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Post by Bill in the rain on May 11, 2023 14:47:29 GMT
I don't remember it being particularly difficult or long, other than a couple of the boss battles.
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alastair
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Post by alastair on May 11, 2023 15:32:02 GMT
Honestly, I don't know how anyone played this the first time round without the hint system. I was lost for a good chunk of my playtime and I had a vague sense of where I should be headed. I genuinely think I would have given up if the hint system wasn't there. I thought the hint system was in the original. Or did they introduce it in Prime 2 or 3? I'm sure I remember those alerts popping up and highlighting a zone on the map.
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Post by RadicalRex on May 11, 2023 16:36:45 GMT
It was in the original
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Post by damagedinc on May 14, 2023 19:32:00 GMT
All complete!
Absolutly brilliant, almost...almost a perfect game for me. Just a few niggles and felt bad rushing it for zelda.
Completed it at 86% in 16 hours Missed just one energy tank 200 missiles
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Post by dangerousdave on May 14, 2023 20:18:26 GMT
Well, there's an excuse for another run in the future.
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Post by bichii2 on May 17, 2023 15:23:25 GMT
Just got the power bomb ball upgrade. How far in am I? Also, what kind of fucking dick decided to put about 847 enemies and turrets between two save points at the power bomb upgrade? Oh and a stupid annoying puzzle??!! Apart from that I'm enjoying it except the infuriating bits like going deep deep down under water in the space shop only to be told I didn't have the gravity upgrade so I have to climb back out for 100 hours and work out wtf I missed. It's great but it gives me rage so I'm not sure of the final score yet. It's not hard, it's annoying.
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Post by dfunked on May 17, 2023 15:48:21 GMT
That gauntlet without any save points before the power bomb is absolutely brutal. You're most of the way through it now. Just a couple more bits of equipment to get, then a fairly annoying artifact hunt before the final face off.
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alastair
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Post by alastair on May 18, 2023 14:52:37 GMT
You can do parts of the artefact hunt now if you want... Be a lowdown cheater like me and check out a guide to see which ones you can get with your current equipment, and save yourself from excessive re-visits to places.
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Post by damagedinc on May 18, 2023 15:09:57 GMT
Just got the power bomb ball upgrade. How far in am I? Also, what kind of fucking dick decided to put about 847 enemies and turrets between two save points at the power bomb upgrade? Oh and a stupid annoying puzzle??!! Apart from that I'm enjoying it except the infuriating bits like going deep deep down under water in the space shop only to be told I didn't have the gravity upgrade so I have to climb back out for 100 hours and work out wtf I missed. It's great but it gives me rage so I'm not sure of the final score yet. It's not hard, it's annoying. Haha sounds like my run. On the whole it's a brilliant game. With one or two annoying bits. But damn those bits are really fucking annoying haha. I feel like it doesn't respect my time. An expression I heard from somewhere. But does my head in when games don't respect it.
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alastair
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Post by alastair on May 18, 2023 15:19:44 GMT
The backtracking for the artefacts reminds me of the Triforce Shard hunting in Wind Waker. (I'm not sure it's quite that bad!)
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Post by RadicalRex on May 18, 2023 19:45:13 GMT
It doesn't take that long in the grand scheme of things, but still I found it a poor design decision. It's not like the game was too short. So here I am, finally ready for the next fight and moving on, but the game forces some crude, artificial backtracking on you for the sake of forced backtracking. It's pure padding that destroys the momentum of progression and it's just annoying.
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alastair
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Post by alastair on May 19, 2023 8:18:14 GMT
I read somewhere in one of the guides that it absolutely is padding. Nintendo were worried it was too short so added in the artefacts.
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Post by dfunked on May 19, 2023 8:45:02 GMT
Which is weird considering the Metroid games aren't exactly known for being lengthy. I don't really mind it, as it gives you a chance to do another loop and mop up a few more items before taking on the end boss, but the game is definitely long enough without it.
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Post by dangerousdave on May 19, 2023 8:55:29 GMT
It was definitely a part of that era where games had to be longer or they weren't seen as good value for money, etc...
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Post by damagedinc on May 19, 2023 8:55:51 GMT
I just found it jarring pace wise and frustrating having to travel. It didn't take long but just felt unnecessary.
An option to teleport to the ship would have solved it.
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alastair
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Post by alastair on May 19, 2023 10:19:42 GMT
An option to teleport to the ship would have solved it. This x100
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alastair
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Post by alastair on May 19, 2023 10:20:31 GMT
Even a restricted teleport where you could skip from a save point back to the ship would have helped.
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Post by steifybobbins on May 22, 2023 21:36:32 GMT
I was head over heels for this for around 6/7 hours but I lost progress several times at different points, after dying before reaching a save room and I just couldn't face that prospect again. I hope to feel compelled to go back to it as its clearly a magnificent game but I have to agree that design choices like those should remain in the past and unfortunately it does sour the experience when you are accustomed to more modern systems. When gaming time is limited I don't want to spend it repeating sections.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on May 23, 2023 0:13:27 GMT
I feel so vindicated right now.
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Post by dangerousdave on May 23, 2023 6:31:35 GMT
I do think the save points could be better placed, but I do think saving anywhere would ruin the experience. Part of the game’s appeal for me is going from one point of the map to another, knowing I have to get their in one piece.
Fast Travel as well would just ruin the flow of the game for similar reasons. Metroid is all about navigating and surviving within a maze. That gets completely eroded by changes these elements.
Still, I’d rip out the artifact hunt entirely as that is just unsatisfying padding. Especially considering half of them cannot be collected until late game and they are just technically parts of a key. If they were genuine and necessary abilities or upgrades, that would be a different story.
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Post by steifybobbins on May 23, 2023 6:42:08 GMT
I do think the save points could be better placed, but I do think saving anywhere would ruin the experience. Part of the game’s appeal for me is going from one point of the map to another, knowing I have to get their in one piece. Fast Travel as well would just ruin the flow of the game for similar reasons. Metroid is all about navigating and surviving within a maze. That gets completely eroded by changes these elements. Still, I’d rip out the artifact hunt entirely as that is just unsatisfying padding. Especially considering half of them cannot be collected until late game and they are just technically parts of a key. If they were genuine and necessary abilities or upgrades, that would be a different story. I see what you are saying but I still think it takes away more than it adds. The real fun is, for me, unpicking the puzzle box, and the satisfaction that comes from watching it spiral outwards. Losing progress (and most people will at least once no matter how much you try) acts as a roadblock to that core idea and kills the pacing dead. In a game where the pacing can already be negatively affected by player choice save anywhere would be very helpful I think
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Post by RadicalRex on May 23, 2023 9:34:26 GMT
Fast Travel as well would just ruin the flow of the game for similar reasons. Metroid is all about navigating and surviving within a maze. I basically agree, but I think this system imposes limits on the size and structure of the game. Imo, why it works so well in the SNES & GBA games is A) they're not that large, B) they have a very interconnected structure with lots of small branches, and C) traversal is pretty fast. Let's take a look at Samus Returns for example. That game is so huge that even with its fast travel it can be pretty tedious, and without it it would be downright horrible. Just how much is too much of course depends on the individual player, but I think at some point you're reaching a point where you can't do without fast travel anymore. Prime isn't quite as bad, but I do see it as a borderline case somewhere between Samus Returns and Super. I found it still somewhat palatable, but often I did feel like some limited fast travel would be nice. As for point B, in Prime I feel like I'm spending the majority of the time in relatively linear main "tubes", as opposed to moving around in the more intertwining small branches of Super. I found that made the backtracking too repetitive, again making me long for some way of skipping e.g. the same few long paths in Magmoor that I've been through 100 times already. And C, Prime is just a lot slower. It has no speed booster and it likes to put repetitive lengthy fights in your way whereas in Super you can just rip through enemies most of the time, especially in the late game. Another thing that made progression and backtracking more tedious than I'd have liked. So yeah, while having a fast travel system can be detrimental to the experience, I do think not having one can be as well, depending on the nature of the game. And I do feel like Prime suffers more from not having one than the SNES and GBA games do. Btw, shoutout to AM2R for getting fast travel in a Metroid game right: It's only unlocked in the late game, and it's some sort of "morph ball pneumatic mail" just providing a few two-way connections between major areas, rather than teleporters that let you just beam to any other teleporter at will. It fits organically into the setting and still requires some on-foot traversal.
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Post by RadicalRex on May 23, 2023 9:36:40 GMT
Related to this, here's an interesting video analysing the world design of Metroid Prime:
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Post by dangerousdave on May 23, 2023 10:32:58 GMT
Prime is definitely too long! I 100% agree with that. I think many of its faults/annoyances could be addressed if it were shorter. But to change anything else would make it feel less like a Metroid game, I think.
I think part of the reason I wasn’t a big fan of Prime 2 is because of its length. With the repetition of a light/dark world theme it feels even longer. It would take another remaster for me to play that one again.
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Post by steifybobbins on May 23, 2023 21:09:53 GMT
Related to this, here's an interesting video analysing the world design of Metroid Prime: I love these videos, thanks for sharing!
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Post by RadicalRex on May 24, 2023 9:16:48 GMT
I love these videos, thanks for sharing! That YT channel has a LOT of them
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Post by damagedinc on May 24, 2023 10:17:32 GMT
Yeah that channel is superb
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