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Post by RadicalRex on Jul 23, 2024 9:48:36 GMT
harrypalmer a reminder if you missed it: upgrade your shield with smithing stones, because that increases its guard boost, i.e. reduces the stamina consumption from blocking. You can infuse it with sacred affinity, which will greatly increase holy damage negation, however that will reduce guard boost and physical damage negation. Even keen/heavy/quality affinity slightly decrease guard boost, it should be highest if you just leave it at standard affinity.
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harrypalmer
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Post by harrypalmer on Jul 23, 2024 10:12:07 GMT
Thanks, I was going to upgrade it next, I have never ever upgraded a shield but did see it helped guard boost.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2024 10:16:26 GMT
So, I'm at the DLC end boss. Hmm. I only have 18 Scudatree and 9 ash, and I'm doing very little damage! I'm not sure I'm up for trying to work out which ones I've missed tbh so I'm gonna look up a nice bit of cheese and see how I get on. I don't really have any issue with it, it is what it is, but I do think it's a bit weird how much harder it is than literally anything else in the game. None of the bosses in the DLC took more than 3 tries, and the vast majority were first time. The difference between this and most other From games, especially Sekiro, is that the other games train you up to be more or less ready for the end boss, whereas ER, particularly the DLC is pretty easy and then suddenly WHAM ha you're doing fuck all damage and there's nothing you can do about it. It's a product of the open world design, and I think there is a case for From games making more sense as more linear experiences, but honestly the game is so astonishing in so many other ways that it kinda balances out! Nah, disagree that it's a product of the open world design. They just couldn't help themselves and completely disregarded every system they have in place in the game and put in an overtuned boss who effectively has infinite stamina, with increased input reading, has the ability to attack a summons while in the same breath attack you from behind and has a 2nd more dangerous phase at 65-70% health that breaks the cardinal rule of clean visibility of attacks. |
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harrypalmer
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Post by harrypalmer on Jul 23, 2024 10:27:32 GMT
I agree, I don't think it's a good boss, and it's disappointing that it basically negates pretty much every single build/variable players will have been using up to that point. It has represented a ridiculous difficulty spike to me based on more or less everything else in the game, which is bad.
I will say that I think it's very doable if you are up for learning his attacks and getting good at dodging. My problem with that is nothing in the game has required me to do that and so I just don't really want to. I've done it in all their other games, but something about the way I've approached ER means I just haven't needed to do it.
It doesn't bother me*. It's the end boss and it's bullshit and actually probably bad, it doesn't change my opinion of Elden Ring.
*I should clarify - it's shit and I would infinitely prefer a boss that was hard but fun to fight, it's not a good boss, which bothers me! But as a whole I dont think it changes how much i love the game.
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Post by RadicalRex on Jul 23, 2024 10:35:05 GMT
He's an attempt to stay relevant in the hardness olympics. It's funny how Miyazaki said that his games aren't meant to be hard just for the sake of being hard, because there's hardly a better example of that than this boss.
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Post by Duffking on Jul 23, 2024 11:18:30 GMT
I think there's a little more excuse for it in the DLC as they've always been tougher than the base games, but I think it's a misjudgement to keep following that philosophy to this extent given how popular the series has gotten.
Generally speaking I think he's a fairer boss than something like Malenia, there's not really anything I point at with him and go "that's fucking bullshit" at least, it's just overtuned more than anything. Increase the windows between his attacks and it'd be pretty enjoyable I reckon, the first phase is pretty great in my opinion.
The biggest issue is that it's a big open world game with tons of build variety but the hardest content aggressively makes more and more stuff non-viable and in the end boss's case also starts to cancel out the stuff they specifically added to the game as a crutch in the first place. It all coalesces into the only stuff that's worth using is stuff that can apply a big damage status effect like bleed or frost, stuff that can do a lot burst (big single hits, parries, stamina breaks). Traditional "just hit them with a normal sword until they die" stuff is just sabotaging yourself.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2024 11:24:07 GMT
I think that is a very fundamental flaw yes, base your game around making all different builds but then have a boss that very clearly needs a specific one unless you're a streamer who has the time to endlessly play and kill him with a dance mat. I do wonder how many reviewers actually got to the last boss AND beat it without it affecting their review because I think only the EG alludes to it.
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Post by RadicalRex on Jul 23, 2024 11:24:54 GMT
Obstructing vision during his attacks, to the point that you can't even see him at all behind the hair... I call that straight up bullshit.
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Jul 23, 2024 11:44:05 GMT
Replaying Dark Souls recently and now going through Demon's again with the boy in co-op and I do really miss their old style bosses. You know... One phase, big telegraphs for moves, a moderate amount of health. Bosses shouldn't be huge fucking roadblocks that halt progress for weeks at a time. Some of us want to see the rest of your fucking game.
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Post by quadfather on Jul 23, 2024 11:59:27 GMT
Replaying Dark Souls recently and now going through Demon's again with the boy in co-op and I do really miss their old style bosses. You know... One phase, big telegraphs for moves, a moderate amount of health. Bosses shouldn't be huge fucking roadblocks that halt progress for weeks at a time. Some of us want to see the rest of your fucking game. Which has always been my number one issue. Agreed. |
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Post by Duffking on Jul 23, 2024 12:14:14 GMT
I think that is a very fundamental flaw yes, base your game around making all different builds but then have a boss that very clearly needs a specific one unless you're a streamer who has the time to endlessly play and kill him with a dance mat. I do wonder how many reviewers actually got to the last boss AND beat it without it affecting their review because I think only the EG alludes to it. My personal conspiracy theory is that a lot of reviewers give FROM a free pass for difficult stuff regardless of how well designed or fair it is, in part because they don't want to stoke the outrage of the "rEvIeWeRs ArE bAd At GaMeS" crowd. And the other half of it is there's a decent amount of stuff in ER that if a non FROM developed game did it, people would be far more critical. |
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Post by Duffking on Jul 23, 2024 12:15:47 GMT
Replaying Dark Souls recently and now going through Demon's again with the boy in co-op and I do really miss their old style bosses. You know... One phase, big telegraphs for moves, a moderate amount of health. Bosses shouldn't be huge fucking roadblocks that halt progress for weeks at a time. Some of us want to see the rest of your fucking game. I don't mind them being big roadblocks but they need to be in line with the other content - SotE's problem is they're all about 5x harder than the actual area leading to them, at best. There's little in ER in general IMO that has that feeling of "wow, that was a really tough area, thank goodness for a bonfire". You just wander through slaughtering stuff and occasionally seeing one or two tough enemies. Then get an absolute shit of a boss. |
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Post by wunty on Jul 23, 2024 12:26:54 GMT
Yeah I was going to say that as well. Their older games were more nuanced. You battled through an area, then the boss was there, the end of the escalation you've just fought through. It felt right. You felt ready. Sure, it would take you a few tries but it was surmountable. Elden Ring just has you YOLO through an area and then pull you over, ask you to step out of the car and then proceed to kick you in the balls until your ears bleed. Rinse and repeat.
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harrypalmer
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Post by harrypalmer on Jul 23, 2024 12:30:04 GMT
He's down. Was trivial with an upgraded shield, pokey stick, Miquella's rune and a mimic.
I just think overall it's a disappointing boss and a poor conclusion, but I absolutely loved the DLC as a whole.
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Post by ned on Jul 23, 2024 12:34:09 GMT
ER i feel like i could start a new game straight after killing the end boss and still get trashed trying to solo Margit or the Scion.
Sekiro i could start a new game after end boss and then proceed to wipe the floor with everything.
Not sure what it is about ER bosses
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2024 12:34:16 GMT
He's down. Was trivial with an upgraded shield, pokey stick, Miquella's rune and a mimic. I just think overall it's a disappointing boss and a poor conclusion, but I absolutely loved the DLC as a whole. That's two shit end bosses in both games. |
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Post by JuniorFE on Jul 23, 2024 12:38:26 GMT
I found SotE's much better than Radabeast (and I'm fairly certain I would feel similarly even without Impenetrable Thorns, just maybe not without the "much") but that's just my opinion.
And with the caveat that Radabeast didn't have Torrent available when I fought them, by many accounts it makes the fight more tolerable.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2024 12:39:51 GMT
I think that is a very fundamental flaw yes, base your game around making all different builds but then have a boss that very clearly needs a specific one unless you're a streamer who has the time to endlessly play and kill him with a dance mat. I do wonder how many reviewers actually got to the last boss AND beat it without it affecting their review because I think only the EG alludes to it. My personal conspiracy theory is that a lot of reviewers give FROM a free pass for difficult stuff regardless of how well designed or fair it is, in part because they don't want to stoke the outrage of the "rEvIeWeRs ArE bAd At GaMeS" crowd. And the other half of it is there's a decent amount of stuff in ER that if a non FROM developed game did it, people would be far more critical. I think reviewers are a hivemind to a degree and my thoughts are that a lot of it is more Emperor's new clothes. ER very clearly has brought far more people into the fold and because the studio has that mythical front man in Miyazaki, just like Kojima, it's incredibly easy to forgive that mountain of ingrained bs than if it was a developer with no clear publicised lead. |
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harrypalmer
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Post by harrypalmer on Jul 23, 2024 14:20:18 GMT
The weapons you get for killing it are nuts though! Almost makes it worth it, think I might finally jump into NG+ with those bad boys.
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Post by Vandelay on Jul 23, 2024 14:24:06 GMT
Gives me an idea for a fun ER challenge run. NG+ run, beat every boss with their own weapon (would likely require a lot of respecing).
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Post by Duffking on Jul 23, 2024 14:59:31 GMT
Gives me an idea for a fun ER challenge run. NG+ run, beat every boss with their own weapon (would likely require a lot of respecing). Or, after each boss, you have to use their weapon until you beat the next boss. |
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Post by JuniorFE on Jul 23, 2024 15:19:35 GMT
Gives me an idea for a fun ER challenge run. NG+ run, beat every boss with their own weapon (would likely require a lot of respecing). Or, after each boss, you have to use their weapon until you beat the next boss. The Mega Man playthrough  |
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2024 15:24:30 GMT
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Post by JuniorFE on Jul 23, 2024 15:29:36 GMT
Holy SHIT! And I thought Bushy two-shotting him (one-shotting each phase) was crazy... |
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Jul 23, 2024 16:24:01 GMT
Replaying Dark Souls recently and now going through Demon's again with the boy in co-op and I do really miss their old style bosses. You know... One phase, big telegraphs for moves, a moderate amount of health. Bosses shouldn't be huge fucking roadblocks that halt progress for weeks at a time. Some of us want to see the rest of your fucking game. That's where I am with Malenia. I'm just loading it up, going a few rounds, then playing something else. If you took one or two things away from her, it'd be fine. There's a really fun fight in there. It's the same with a couple of other bosses where it really feels like they kept pushing the difficulty to the limit
She's got loads of health, life steal, a stupid combo, second health bar and scarlet rot. It's a lot
The gargoyles fight is another example. You've already got 2 bosses to fight, each with unique movesets to learn. That would have been fine. But then they add in the poison attack so it's something else you have to constantly deal with, plus it does direct damage and staggers
Godskin Duo is similar. Them constantly throwing fireballs is what makes it frustrating. It's like they felt they had to one up O&S
Also poison isn't enough, we need another, even worse poison now
Great game though
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Post by RadicalRex on Jul 23, 2024 16:44:49 GMT
The gargoyles fight is another example. You've already got 2 bosses to fight, each with unique movesets to learn. That would have been fine. But then they add in the poison attack so it's something else you have to constantly deal with, plus it does direct damage and staggers Don't forget that on top of that it's almost the same colour as the ground, so it's even easily missed before it's too late. It's an obvious continuation of the twingarg trope, but what it really references as a boss fight is Demon Prince from DS3, hence the poison attacks. And it's not a good look how that one already got everything right that sucks in ER's version, even the poison attacks. |
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Jul 23, 2024 16:55:55 GMT
Yeah, I'm generally not a fan of dual bosses (my heart sank when the second gargoyle appeared in ER) but the one in DS3 is really good. It still feels like you can manage that fight. I did still enjoy the one in ER but it made the fight take a lot longer to learn. Every time you think you're clear to get some damage in, you're hit with the poison
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2024 17:20:32 GMT
Out of all duo fights I found the Maneater boss in Demons' Souls the most annoying primarily due to the location of the fight.
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Post by RadicalRex on Jul 23, 2024 17:20:43 GMT
I think duo boss fights are one of the weakest (and most criticised) parts of Elden Ring. It's no coincidence that Valiant Gargoyles and Godskin Duo are easily among the most hated boss fights in the game.
ONS and Demon Prince are so good and popular because they were designed from the ground up for those fights and are tuned to complement each other, and iirc that's true for most duo fights in those games. ER on the other hand keeps taking reused bosses that you usually fight 1v1 and just puts two of them in one room with little or no changes, and usually they don't work well together at all.
Normally I'd say putting you against two 1v1 enemies at the same time is Classic DS2, but even DS2 had dedicated duo designs, like the penultimate boss fight. ER on the other hand, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't have a single duo fight with bosses exclusive to that encounter.
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Jul 23, 2024 17:36:54 GMT
DS2 and BB have a couple of trios as well, none of which are bad fights
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