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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 12:59:09 GMT
Post by gamingdave on Apr 12, 2024 12:59:09 GMT
My general complaint was that whilst things are sign-posted, and motivations are explained, the pacing is really off and it doesn't feel like certain scenes or story beats are given the right emphasis.
Someone compared Paul to Anakin, but I think his turn was far slower, and more earned. That's not to say EP2/3 are better than Dune - those films have their own problems. But Chani seems more upset than shocked at Paul's sudden shift and I can see why people came out a little confused themselves.
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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 13:15:17 GMT
Post by monkman5000 on Apr 12, 2024 13:15:17 GMT
Yeah, but again (and again please bear with me as I'm no Dune expert), even if the shift is quite sudden it's nowhere near as black and white as from 'good guy' to 'bad guy' Shirley. Unlike in Star Wars.
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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 13:18:55 GMT
Post by gamingdave on Apr 12, 2024 13:18:55 GMT
Yes, it's not as simple as good and bad - I guess my point was for Anakin it essentially was, but that is given more time both in the transition, and the motivations for it. For Paul, everything feels rushed and even if HE made the realisation in an instant, you need to take the audience with you.
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Phattso
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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 13:56:14 GMT
Post by Phattso on Apr 12, 2024 13:56:14 GMT
I just realised I done fucked up - the Waterloo IMAX is only showing this sporadically now (on dates I can't make).
Looks like I'll be buying it on Apple TV on Monday and watching it in my undies, like I did with the first one!
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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 14:39:20 GMT
Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 12, 2024 14:39:20 GMT
But none of that is in the movie(s)! It is. He has the unclear visions of lots of death if he goes south. Then Switch Tabr is bombed and he only sees everyone he knows dying. So he goes south and takes the water of life where he sees the one way through. Which he says out loud. Kinda. If you've read the book recently and can make the connections it's alluding to.
But in the movie: He has visions of everyone dying if he goes south so he doesn't want to. Then suddenly decides to do it anyway.
He drinks the water and has visions we aren't privy to, and then mentions 'one way through', but it's not really clear for what. At that point his main concerns are the Harkonnen and Feyd bombing them to hell, so you'd assume the one way through is beating the Harkonnen, saving the Fremen and maybe taking control of Arrakis, which he does.
But there's no indication why he'd want to suddenly jump into a pan-galactic holy war, or that that's somehow connected to the 'one way through (to swindon?)' or the survival of humanity or whatever.
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Onny
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Post by Onny on Apr 12, 2024 18:10:24 GMT
I just realised I done fucked up - the Waterloo IMAX is only showing this sporadically now (on dates I can't make). Looks like I'll be buying it on Apple TV on Monday and watching it in my undies, like I did with the first one! Is it out on Monday to buy digitally? Praise the Maker! |
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mcmonkeyplc
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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 18:15:47 GMT
Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 12, 2024 18:15:47 GMT
I just realised I done fucked up - the Waterloo IMAX is only showing this sporadically now (on dates I can't make). Looks like I'll be buying it on Apple TV on Monday and watching it in my undies, like I did with the first one! It's how I've watched both š |
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 12, 2024 18:17:59 GMT
What's making my brain hurt is that I thought Paul wanted to avoid Jihad in Dune but it seems be happening anyway. Both in book and film.š
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zephro
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Apr 12, 2024 18:35:20 GMT
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Post by zephro on Apr 12, 2024 18:35:20 GMT
It is. He has the unclear visions of lots of death if he goes south. Then Switch Tabr is bombed and he only sees everyone he knows dying. So he goes south and takes the water of life where he sees the one way through. Which he says out loud. Kinda. If you've read the book recently and can make the connections it's alluding to.
But in the movie: He has visions of everyone dying if he goes south so he doesn't want to. Then suddenly decides to do it anyway.
He drinks the water and has visions we aren't privy to, and then mentions 'one way through', but it's not really clear for what.Ā At that point his main concerns are the Harkonnen and Feyd bombing them to hell, so you'd assume the one way through is beating the Harkonnen, saving the Fremen and maybe taking control of Arrakis, which he does.
But there's no indication why he'd want to suddenly jump into a pan-galactic holy war, or that that's somehow connected to the 'one way through (to swindon?)' or the survival of humanity or whatever.
I would say I've not read it in 10 years and my wife who's never read the book did pick up on it. Though with a bit less clarity than I had. |
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Dune
Apr 12, 2024 19:21:18 GMT
Post by Phattso on Apr 12, 2024 19:21:18 GMT
I just realised I done fucked up - the Waterloo IMAX is only showing this sporadically now (on dates I can't make). Looks like I'll be buying it on Apple TV on Monday and watching it in my undies, like I did with the first one! It's how I've watched both š Sure, but unlike you I'm not comfortable with dropping trou in the cinema, so...  |
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Apr 12, 2024 19:30:50 GMT
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Post by zephro on Apr 12, 2024 19:30:50 GMT
What's making my brain hurt is that I thought Paul wanted to avoid Jihad in Dune but it seems be happening anyway. Both in book and film.š I believe that's the point. He's neither a hero protagonist or an absolute antagonist it's somewhat pulled along by historical inevitability, which he is merely an agent of. |
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Dune
Apr 13, 2024 8:09:47 GMT
Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 13, 2024 8:09:47 GMT
Kinda. If you've read the book recently and can make the connections it's alluding to.
But in the movie: He has visions of everyone dying if he goes south so he doesn't want to. Then suddenly decides to do it anyway.
He drinks the water and has visions we aren't privy to, and then mentions 'one way through', but it's not really clear for what. At that point his main concerns are the Harkonnen and Feyd bombing them to hell, so you'd assume the one way through is beating the Harkonnen, saving the Fremen and maybe taking control of Arrakis, which he does.
But there's no indication why he'd want to suddenly jump into a pan-galactic holy war, or that that's somehow connected to the 'one way through (to swindon?)' or the survival of humanity or whatever.
I would say I've not read it in 10 years and my wife who's never read the book did pick up on it. Though with a bit less clarity than I had. Oh, I'm not saying it's not there, just that it's really really weak and in no way justifies his total 180.
There may be a reasonable justification, but the first 2 parts of the movie don't really provide it.
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Apr 13, 2024 9:56:14 GMT
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Post by Onny on Apr 13, 2024 9:56:14 GMT
Paul and his personality changes:
He does a 180 because drinking the worm blood changes him. It enables him to see all possible futures and the narrow path to his own survival, which means using the firemenās beliefs to his own advantage and inciting the war he feared.
I think this is really interesting; it asks the question āhow would you change if you could know the future?ā Frank Herbert thinks it will turn you into a tyrant who manipulates others to your own benefit.
(Side note - maybe as the film is coming out in the home on Monday we stop spoiler tagging chat next week?) |
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Dune
Apr 13, 2024 12:11:36 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Apr 13, 2024 12:11:36 GMT
Paul and his personality changes:
He does a 180 because drinking the worm blood changes him. It enables him to see all possible futures and the narrow path to his own survival, which means using the firemenās beliefs to his own advantage and inciting the war he feared.
I think this is really interesting; it asks the question āhow would you change if you could know the future?ā Frank Herbert thinks it will turn you into a tyrant who manipulates others to your own benefit.
(Side note - maybe as the film is coming out in the home on Monday we stop spoiler tagging chat next week?) Without having read the books (other than the first a long time ago and can't really remember anything about it), this is exactly how I saw it too. Thought it was pretty clear on this fact, particularly as it had much the same reaction on his mother (also was reluctant to take on a role and then took on the role to an extreme). I can see some complaining that this is a bit of a Deus ex machina, but personally didn't bother me. It is unclear whether what he is seeing is a real or if he is just being manipulated. That ambiguity makes it more interesting to me than a regular Deus ex machina. |
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Dune
Apr 15, 2024 10:02:56 GMT
Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 15, 2024 10:02:56 GMT
FYI Digital (legal) download available now.
Fuckers haven't released a double pack yet though with Part 1 and 2.
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Post by Phattso on Apr 15, 2024 10:03:50 GMT
FYI Digital (legal) download available now. Fuckers haven't released a double pack yet though with Part 1 and 2. If you donāt already own the first one youāre part of the problem frankly. |
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Apr 15, 2024 10:12:23 GMT
Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 15, 2024 10:12:23 GMT
I am, I purchased the Matrix revelations and rented Dune Part 1  I am fail. |
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Post by Phattso on Apr 15, 2024 10:13:14 GMT
There is no emoji for what Iām feeling about you right now.
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Apr 15, 2024 10:51:59 GMT
Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 15, 2024 10:51:59 GMT
If there is some redeem from this sad state of affairs I purchased the Dune trilogy (books) immediately after I finished part 1  |
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Apr 15, 2024 13:04:59 GMT
Post by zephro on Apr 15, 2024 13:04:59 GMT
Paul and his personality changes:
He does a 180 because drinking the worm blood changes him. It enables him to see all possible futures and the narrow path to his own survival, which means using the firemenās beliefs to his own advantage and inciting the war he feared.
I think this is really interesting; it asks the question āhow would you change if you could know the future?ā Frank Herbert thinks it will turn you into a tyrant who manipulates others to your own benefit.
(Side note - maybe as the film is coming out in the home on Monday we stop spoiler tagging chat next week?) Without having read the books (other than the first a long time ago and can't really remember anything about it), this is exactly how I saw it too. Thought it was pretty clear on this fact, particularly as it had much the same reaction on his mother (also was reluctant to take on a role and then took on the role to an extreme). I can see some complaining that this is a bit of a Deus ex machina, but personally didn't bother me. It is unclear whether what he is seeing is a real or if he is just being manipulated. That ambiguity makes it more interesting to me than a regular Deus ex machina. I'd also say this is the actual conceit that makes it a proper SciFi book, or able to be a classic one anyhow. Paul can fully see/predict the future or all possible futures and how does that change him? The Bene Gesserit/Reverend Mothers can fully experience the past and half see the future. Considering human history is pretty fucking horrible reacting to that with ruthlessness doesn't seem that weird. Anyhow, the later books explore it more. As spoiler alert, Paul has children and you start to get divergent character's reactions to this knowledge. Plus his sister Alia. |
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Dune
Apr 19, 2024 14:20:12 GMT
Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 19, 2024 14:20:12 GMT
By the way, there is a double edition Part 1 and 2 available for download for Ā£23 I redeemed myself. OK?! |
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Apr 19, 2024 20:50:57 GMT
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Post by Phattso on Apr 19, 2024 20:50:57 GMT
By the way, there is a double edition Part 1 and 2 available for download for Ā£23 I redeemed myself. OK?! No! Where were you when Saint Denis was trying to get Part Two greenlit?! Mightāve been for the best if he hadnāt. I watched it tonight and it left me very cold. :-( |
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Apr 20, 2024 9:54:08 GMT
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 20, 2024 9:54:08 GMT
By the way, there is a double edition Part 1 and 2 available for download for Ā£23 I redeemed myself. OK?! No! Where were you when Saint Denis was trying to get Part Two greenlit?! Mightāve been for the best if he hadnāt. I watched it tonight and it left me very cold. :-( I kind of know what you mean but if I just take it as film in a series it's great. It's when I compare it to the books it falls short. Here's a tip...compare it to the 1984 version... |
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Apr 20, 2024 11:14:48 GMT
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Post by Phattso on Apr 20, 2024 11:14:48 GMT
The 1984 version is one of my favourite movies of all time, despite how much it shat on the book, so not a useful comparison. I enjoyed the act of watching Part Two, but I derived very little satisfaction from it. Might just need to watch them back to back, as it really is literally one film split in two. Seemed to spend a lot of time in certain places but without necessarily achieving the most from spending that timeā¦ and then just pissed away some really interesting side arcs. I wonder how much part three can salvage. |
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Dune
May 1, 2024 9:05:57 GMT
Post by mcmonkeyplc on May 1, 2024 9:05:57 GMT
Finished Messiah, it'd be odd to have the final film in a trilogy being a political thriller...unless they show the holy war.
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Post by zephro on May 2, 2024 19:10:51 GMT
Finished Messiah, it'd be odd to have the final film in a trilogy being a political thriller...unless they show the holy war. Read Children and it will become apparent why everyone is suspicious of going past Messiah. |
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Post by FlexibleFeline on May 3, 2024 6:43:55 GMT
Children feels like a pleasantly conventional story compared to God Emperor, though.
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Post by otto on May 6, 2024 12:27:43 GMT
I find it really odd that one of my favourite books ever, which I reread probably once every other year, was followed by books that I find completely unreadable. Messiah totally fails to hold my interest, although I've tried a few times. Once I did get past it and on to Children but I can't remember anything about them.
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Dune
May 6, 2024 13:54:40 GMT
Post by Bill in the rain on May 6, 2024 13:54:40 GMT
When SyFy adapted them, they did Children of Dune straight after Dune, but I think it actually included both Messiah and Children, but with a lot of the weirder bits cut out.
I don't think I've read the sequel books, but I might have attempted it a long time ago.
[edit] note: I know I've read the first one
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May 6, 2024 16:00:24 GMT
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Post by Phattso on May 6, 2024 16:00:24 GMT
The interesting thing from the later books for me was all the Ghola action. Which is why one specific bit of casting from Part One really pissed me off.
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