Onny
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Post by Onny on Mar 3, 2024 12:32:27 GMT
I loved it. It was complicated. Big, grown up film making. I thought Paul’s character arc was excellent. And also very sad. Really hope they make part 3! I read this as 'big, brown film making'. Big, yellow film making.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Mar 3, 2024 16:54:17 GMT
Verdict: pretty good. My only real problem with it was that the sound in the cinema wasn’t particularly well tuned so the persistent atonal clanking and honking of the ‘soundtrack’ started to grate by the end of it.
The changes seemed all to be focused on mainlining the accidental jihadist part of the story and giving Chiani some agency outside of just being a ticking timebomb. I’m also not mad about Alia being basically a ghost.
All in all, looks great, the story was contemporised pretty well and was faithful enough to the book without it getting completely bogged down. Another Villeneuve win.
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Dune
Mar 5, 2024 11:21:25 GMT
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Post by Trowel 🏴 on Mar 5, 2024 11:21:25 GMT
Spoilers
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Dune
Mar 6, 2024 8:47:35 GMT
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Post by britesparc on Mar 6, 2024 8:47:35 GMT
Saw it last night and bloody loved it. I've not read any of the books apart from the first one so I don't know where it is going or what it's setting up, but I thought the changes to the story were interesting. A lot of the changes to streamline the narrative I thought were good ideas that made sense in terms of trying to make the film appeal to a broader audience. Despite that, it still found time to be batshit bonkers.
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Dune
Mar 10, 2024 21:29:39 GMT
Post by anthonyuk on Mar 10, 2024 21:29:39 GMT
The visuals & cinematography were incredible and like the first, the director gave us time to admire it. Problem was it felt like the movie went from 0-100mph in the 2nd half, once they knuckled down to tell the actual story. But like the first movie, characters are puddle deep and how they interact and talk, shows little resemblance to how actual people talk in real situations. Paul's journey especially made little to no sense to me. How did he go from wanting simple revenge, to embracing his role has Jihadist entirely in what felt like a scene or two? [/quote] Also the ending Being madly in love to marrying the emperors daughter? why? Also more annoyingly after telling his followers he'd lead them to Peace and foreshadowing being stood on the shores of an ocean, I'd assuming the final scene was Paul leading them back to his own home planet. But a casual google to understand some other vague plot points told me they were actually off to start an intergalactic Jihadist war? I didn't take that from any of the scenes prior at all [/quote] A visual feast and an impressive movie in lots of ways, but the basic storytelling I felt lacked.
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MolarAm🔵
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Dune
Mar 10, 2024 22:10:45 GMT
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Mar 10, 2024 22:10:45 GMT
He did all that because drinking the water of life allowed him to more perfectly see the future, as opposed to just some random dreams. And the best future (ie. one in which the human race survives) required doing the other things you talked about. It's the old "kill one person to save thousands" conundrum.
Obviously that's a lot to get through in one movie. It's a complicated book! But I think the movie did an ok job of it.
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Bongo Heracles
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Mar 10, 2024 22:21:16 GMT
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Mar 10, 2024 22:21:16 GMT
Basically, from a certain point everything becomes a means to an end rather than something he actually wants
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Dune
Mar 10, 2024 22:44:13 GMT
Post by britesparc on Mar 10, 2024 22:44:13 GMT
To be fair, the book kind of races through the climactic battle and Paul's subsequent change from being horrified at the prospect of an intergalactic jihad to thinking it's necessary. Although Chani does stay with him in the book, which is an interesting wrinkle.
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Dune
Mar 10, 2024 23:01:12 GMT
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Post by stixxuk on Mar 10, 2024 23:01:12 GMT
Might need to watch it again but I missed the bit where he saw that the human race gets wiped out unless he does the war thing, just seemed like he switched suddenly.
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MolarAm🔵
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Mar 11, 2024 1:03:11 GMT
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Mar 11, 2024 1:03:11 GMT
Might need to watch it again but I missed the bit where he saw that the human race gets wiped out unless he does the war thing, just seemed like he switched suddenly. He doesn't specifically say that, I don't think. But I'm pretty sure that the "I have to do terrible things, or even more terrible things will happen" thing gets mentioned. But the point is that, especially after he drinks the water, he can see the future (or at least thinks he can see the future). Like, far into the future, and all possibilities for that future. That's basically most of his reason for doing what he does. He does it because he thinks he has to, not because he wants to. Maybe the movie didn't explain that well enough? It's a bit difficult for me to tell, because my brain automatically supplants it with details from the books.
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 2:05:09 GMT
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Post by 😎 on Mar 11, 2024 2:05:09 GMT
Getting into being a book wanker, it’s a combination of a flaw of thinking prescience is a perfect vision (literally nullified later by no-ships) and also the large assumption that the jihad was inevitable due to the seeds of the prophecy of Lisan al-Gaib being seeded by the Bene Gesserit. Combined that with the whole kanly thing against the Harkonnens and it became a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.
Also, Paul is distinctly not a hero and one of the major driving points, especially in the sequel books, is that he’s actually the antagonist.
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MolarAm🔵
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Mar 11, 2024 2:09:51 GMT
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Mar 11, 2024 2:09:51 GMT
I think when Bardem and Brolin and all the rest of them are piling into the ships at the end going "FUCK YEAH HOLY WAR WOOOOOOO", you're meant be be at least a little about it.
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Onny
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Post by Onny on Mar 11, 2024 8:39:03 GMT
Oh man I have Thoughts about Paul’s behaviour. Thoughts!! My reading is as follows (and is only based on the films): Paul has enough prescience to know that there is a potential future where he causes an intergalactic war. At the end of the first film he rejects this path - hence he kills Jamis in the duel, rather than learning from him as the visions guide him to do.
In the second film, he finds his place with the Fremen, and even finds love. This is enough for him - be a freedom fighter, work with his friends against the Harkonnen through guerilla warfare. He continues to have visions of what will happen if he “goes South” and follows his mother, that being once again that billions will die. As before he rejects this future and tries to stay north - but after the attack on the seitch he realises he must depart.
He ingests the water of life, likely believing it will either kill him (as everyone says it does) or “unlock his vision” and allow him to see a solution. And of course it does the second thing, partly thanks to Jessica grotesquely forcing Chani to intervene against her will.
Ingesting the blood works. However the consequence of this new ability is that it fundamentally changes Paul. He knows the futures available and his only option for survival is to become the Fremen hero and instigate the war. So that’s what he does. He takes advantage of the Bene Gesserit legends and manipulates the Fremen into doing what he wants, knowing it will lead to a huge number of deaths. He is now utterly ruthless, transfixed on the path to the future he sees.
I think it’s sad. In fact it’s almost a tragedy, which is why after the second film I left the cinema feeling profound melancholy. I love it!
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Vandelay
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Mar 11, 2024 8:43:11 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Mar 11, 2024 8:43:11 GMT
I think Chani abandoning him is also meant to signal that this is not a "FUCK YEAH!!!" ending. The whole tone is pretty ominous.
As for not picking up the whole off on a crusade thing, Jessica (who has clearly been part of engineering the whole thing) literally says that this is the start of the holy war as they are all loading up on the ships. It's pretty clear they are off to make trouble and not live peacefully somewhere.
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Onny
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 8:45:59 GMT
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Post by Onny on Mar 11, 2024 8:45:59 GMT
I don’t know about Jessica being in it from the start - I think she has a similar journey to Paul. Reluctant but then is forced into extremism through external factors.
Those external factors being; become the reverend mother or die, and then her path to survival is opened via worm blood plus the talking fetus
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Vandelay
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Mar 11, 2024 8:52:46 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Mar 11, 2024 8:52:46 GMT
Yes, I should clarify that I don't mean from the start. Jessica of Dune Part 1 is far more the manipulated than a manipulator. Once she becomes Reverend Mother and has the fetus talking to her she is much more in control of everything that is going on (whether that is of her own will or some other external factor is open to debate - although maybe clearer in the books. I only read the first one quite a long time ago and don't really remember anything about it.)
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 10:11:16 GMT
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Post by gamingdave on Mar 11, 2024 10:11:16 GMT
I thought the ending was pretty clear, in the fact they were off for holy war.
I did find Paul's turn too sudden, he says something along the lines of "I've seen all the paths and this is the only one" but that's about it. Given the slow pace of the rest of the film, a little longer at that point at least showing some internal conflict could have helped, but then if it's not in the book (and it's a very long time since I read it) then maybe they thought it was enough.
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askew
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Mar 11, 2024 10:33:52 GMT
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Post by askew on Mar 11, 2024 10:33:52 GMT
I put a jihad on you
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 10:46:09 GMT
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Post by stixxuk on Mar 11, 2024 10:46:09 GMT
I thought the ending was pretty clear, in the fact they were off for holy war. I did find Paul's turn too sudden, he says something along the lines of "I've seen all the paths and this is the only one" but that's about it. Given the slow pace of the rest of the film, a little longer at that point at least showing some internal conflict could have helped, but then if it's not in the book (and it's a very long time since I read it) then maybe they thought it was enough. Yeah this is the issue - it was so sudden with zero time given to a hugely significant shift in persona. I kind of get it but I don't think it came across at all that he went through much of a decision process - he just flipped (and I mean both the decision to drink the water as well as what followed as a result of that).
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 11:15:57 GMT
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Post by simple on Mar 11, 2024 11:15:57 GMT
My half memory from the books is it being a fairly hard shift in that too and one I only really caught up on in Messiah and Children.
But then it has been ages, I was quite young and went into them already with the preconception of Kyle’s Paul being a Hero like Luke Skywalker rather than a cog in a bigger story thanks to watching the movie a lot of times before I read it. So maybe my brain didn’t fully process what was happening to him post-Water of Life.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Mar 11, 2024 11:26:51 GMT
Now you mention it, I do think Luke dropping out of the hero game in The Last Jedi owes a debt to messiah.
Also, like it or not, I think most peoples interpretation of Dune comes from the David Lynch movie which very much shows Paul having a traditional heroes journey. Its not particularly nuanced in that respect and probably does colour your view of the new movies.
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Mar 11, 2024 11:30:52 GMT
Oh man I have Thoughts about Paul’s behaviour. Thoughts!! My reading is as follows (and is only based on the films): Paul has enough prescience to know that there is a potential future where he causes an intergalactic war. At the end of the first film he rejects this path - hence he kills Jamis in the duel, rather than learning from him as the visions guide him to do.
In the second film, he finds his place with the Fremen, and even finds love. This is enough for him - be a freedom fighter, work with his friends against the Harkonnen through guerilla warfare. He continues to have visions of what will happen if he “goes South” and follows his mother, that being once again that billions will die. As before he rejects this future and tries to stay north - but after the attack on the seitch he realises he must depart.
He ingests the water of life, likely believing it will either kill him (as everyone says it does) or “unlock his vision” and allow him to see a solution. And of course it does the second thing, partly thanks to Jessica grotesquely forcing Chani to intervene against her will.
Ingesting the blood works. However the consequence of this new ability is that it fundamentally changes Paul. He knows the futures available and his only option for survival is to become the Fremen hero and instigate the war. So that’s what he does. He takes advantage of the Bene Gesserit legends and manipulates the Fremen into doing what he wants, knowing it will lead to a huge number of deaths. He is now utterly ruthless, transfixed on the path to the future he sees.
I think it’s sad. In fact it’s almost a tragedy, which is why after the second film I left the cinema feeling profound melancholy. I love it! I think melancholy is exactly the right response - there's a reason Nolan compared it to The Empire Strikes Back (and Villeneuve considers this one of the greatest compliments he has received about the film). What I'm most interested in - fascinated by, in fact - is Chani and how that is going to play out in part 3. Spoilers for those who don't know the story of Dune Messiah - best avoid the below. The Chani / Irulan / provision of heirs thread is integral to Messiah. I really like what Villeneuve did in giving more agency to Chani and the resulting rupture with Paul but I wonder how he's going to get to the point that Chani is Paul's concubine and they are deeply in love, yet she's unable to have kids thanks to Irulan's secret provision of contraceptives...and Paul's knowledge Chani will die in childbirth, hence him not stopping Irulan.
It's so integral he can't not get to it, but it'll add another thirty minutes onto the film (fine with me...).
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 11:35:08 GMT
Post by gamingdave on Mar 11, 2024 11:35:08 GMT
Now that I've seen pt2, I'm going to go back and watch Lynch's version but not sure which version to go for.
I know David didn't approve the longer version, and instinctively I'm more inclined to go with the directors decision (especially as it's Lynch) but then he practically disowned even that version and there is a fan-edit about which sounds like it might be the one to go for.
Anyone seen all 3 and have a preference?
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 11:36:11 GMT
Post by FlexibleFeline on Mar 11, 2024 11:36:11 GMT
Go for the one with the most War-Pug.
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 11:37:14 GMT
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Mar 11, 2024 11:37:14 GMT
Or, more helpfully, the fan edit, perhaps? Not sure how easy it is to get hold of the different versions, I might look into that myself as I only have the standard one.
Despite being a book wanker, I'm a fan of the Lynch version. I saw it when it first came out and its sheer weirdness left a lasting impression on me.
Edit: turns out this is one of the first hits on Youtube:
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 11:56:53 GMT
Post by Phattso on Mar 11, 2024 11:56:53 GMT
Now that I've seen pt2, I'm going to go back and watch Lynch's version but not sure which version to go for. I know David didn't approve the longer version, and instinctively I'm more inclined to go with the directors decision (especially as it's Lynch) but then he practically disowned even that version and there is a fan-edit about which sounds like it might be the one to go for. Anyone seen all 3 and have a preference? Just watch the theatrical release. The longer versions are great for fanbois (like me) but aren't amazingly well integrated and, ultimately, I enjoy the original release more. It is really hard to separate the Lynch version out from anything else in my mind. Despite the drastic departures from the source material, it's my own Head Cannon for Dune. Haven't managed to see Part Two yet, but soon. It's very close now.
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 12:01:29 GMT
Post by gamingdave on Mar 11, 2024 12:01:29 GMT
Or, more helpfully, the fan edit, perhaps? Not sure how easy it is to get hold of the different versions, I might look into that myself as I only have the standard one. Despite being a book wanker, I'm a fan of the Lynch version. I saw it when it first came out and its sheer weirdness left a lasting impression on me. Edit: turns out this is one of the first hits on Youtube: That's the one, though their is a later release apparently that the fan-editor made before that upscale was done
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 12:02:18 GMT
Post by gamingdave on Mar 11, 2024 12:02:18 GMT
Now that I've seen pt2, I'm going to go back and watch Lynch's version but not sure which version to go for. I know David didn't approve the longer version, and instinctively I'm more inclined to go with the directors decision (especially as it's Lynch) but then he practically disowned even that version and there is a fan-edit about which sounds like it might be the one to go for. Anyone seen all 3 and have a preference? Just watch the theatrical release. The longer versions are great for fanbois (like me) but aren't amazingly well integrated and, ultimately, I enjoy the original release more. It is really hard to separate the Lynch version out from anything else in my mind. Despite the drastic departures from the source material, it's my own Head Cannon for Dune. Haven't managed to see Part Two yet, but soon. It's very close now. Have you seen that fan-edit version, or by longer are you just talking about the "official" one.
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 12:09:41 GMT
Post by Phattso on Mar 11, 2024 12:09:41 GMT
The "official" one, as it's the version I've seen most (not including the original, obvs). I did try the fan edit a few years back, but either I wasn't in the mood or it wasn't very good as I never made it to the end. Again: the original theatrical release is my Head Cannon.
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Dune
Mar 11, 2024 15:33:39 GMT
Post by anthonyuk on Mar 11, 2024 15:33:39 GMT
The switch in persona with Paul was bizarre. There were the water of life scenes prior, which the Fremen openly state is a poison and I guess some form of test of faith. Nothing else is explained other than where it comes from. So without any further context, to go from from reluctantly taking advantage of the Freemen's faith/manipulation for revenge to fully embracing it, felt odd.
Paul's visions of a billions dying and "seeing a way though" I took as the final attack against the emperor and stopping the decades long conflict against the Fremen.
So Paul deciding to take the Fremen on a galaxy wide Jihad abandoning their home, I didn't take from the movie as nothing of the sort was ever mentioned or even suggested. Taking them to "peace" as they mentioned within the movie I assumed was just to a new home.
I'm keen to give it a re-watch, but if this story was meant to be Paul's decent into an antagonist of sorts (again haven't read the books) I think they missed the mark.
Villeneuve likes to tell his stories visually sure, but a few less panoramic shots with that slightly obnoxious inception horn and a little bit more exposition would have been useful I think.
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