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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 19, 2021 2:43:41 GMT
On the topic of film adaptations of books I've read: I never watch them. I've watched Lord of the Rings, and really regretted it. Never again! Definitely stay well away from the The Hobbit movies then. They will scar you for life.  PS/ Personal rule of thumb for quickly ascertaining if someone is worth listening to about movies: Ask their opinion on the LotR movies. Ask their opinion on The Hobbit movies. If the opinions are the same, ignore person.  (optional final step: feel superior. ) |
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 19, 2021 3:14:15 GMT
I liked The Hobbit book more than the Lord of the Rings books.
Though reading it now is pretty funny, because (among other things) you realise how much of a complete sausage party it is. People (justifiably) talk about the sexism in Wheel of Time, but even the classics of the genre have major issues in that way.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 19, 2021 5:00:47 GMT
Well, The Hobbit was published in 1937... Women only got fully equal voting rights in the uk in 1928.
Plus, even if The Hobbit did have a major female character, they'd still be outnumbered because having a party with *thirteen* dwarves is already hyper unbalanced.
I get the impression Jordan was going for something non-sexist in WoT... what with the Aes Sedai being all women, and Moraine being the Gandalf character, and all the women being sassy.
Whether he actually achieved what he was going for is another matter... *looks angry and tugs on braid*
It's interesting to note that from the Amazon trailer you'd think the entire thing was about magic women, and I don't even know if Rand was in that trailer... given he's supposed to be the main protagonist.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 19, 2021 6:04:52 GMT
Yeah I know it's of its time. It's just funny that the word "she" appears literally once in the whole book (to refer to Bilbo's mum).
Anyway, the problem with that aspect of WoT is that all the female characters are conniving, joyless scolds, and all the male characters are dumb, impulsive cave people. There are slight variations, but the pattern is really noticeable.
Even the magic system is divided by sex! The female magic requires coordination and working together, but the other half is WILD AND UNTAMED. Just like men, am I right?
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 19, 2021 7:10:14 GMT
I, personally, am very WILD AND UNTAMED. Also very buff.
Bilbo's mum did appear to be pretty cool though... someone should really do a hobbit prequel which is the adventures of Belladonna Took.
I vaguely remember kinda liking the female characters in WoT at first, but then it did get repetitive. I'm not sure how much of that was a factor of his portrayals, and how much was simply a function of the fact that he dragged everything out so bloody long that what could have been 1-2 male characters and 1-2 female characters being a bit similar over 4 books ended up being 4-5 male characters and 4-5 female characters being similar over 34 books.
I mean, if he hadn't been going for Tolkien-beating-epicness he could probably have cut/combined several of the male/female characters.
Then again, Tolkien could probably have cut/combined a few dwarves. ;-)
As far as I can tell he only had 13 just to give an excuse for needing a 14th member to avoid the unlucky number.
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zagibu
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Post by zagibu on Sept 19, 2021 8:47:42 GMT
Yeah I know it's of its time. It's just funny that the word "she" appears literally once in the whole book (to refer to Bilbo's mum). Anyway, the problem with that aspect of WoT is that all the female characters are conniving, joyless scolds, and all the male characters are dumb, impulsive cave people. There are slight variations, but the pattern is really noticeable. Even the magic system is divided by sex! The female magic requires coordination and working together, but the other half is WILD AND UNTAMED. Just like men, am I right? That's a pretty superficial criticism. The male side is not wild and untamed, but tainted. And it's explained why. Also, there are lots of different female characters, and some are very not conniving, joyless scolds.
But yeah, it was written by an old man, and as such is not really up to date on modern gender standards in many ways.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 19, 2021 9:11:16 GMT
I mean, I generalised a bit, but I think that criticism is basically accurate (maybe Min is an exception, she's pretty cool). It's still a pretty good series overall, I just don't think it holds up particularly well on the gender front. Anyway, to bring it back on topic, the retrograde gender politics could easily be improved by an adaptation. I hope they do it.  |
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 19, 2021 9:16:12 GMT
I guess if this show gets at all popular, we'll need to have a separate book wanker thread.
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Post by ToomuchFluffy on Sept 19, 2021 18:34:52 GMT
My impression of the character writing in WoT, especially in terms of gender relationships is that Jordan's approach is often rather ironic. It almost seems like Satire at times. Though to be quite honest, his character writing is just generally not really all that great and this style we ended up with might partially just be a result of his limitations as a writer.
Not that I'm complaining about Jordan as a writer. Sanderson's recent writing has made me realize more and more how much I appreciated Jordan's style in some ways.
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Post by Tonka (🐑,🪤) on Sept 20, 2021 9:04:34 GMT
I've been thinking about what makes generic fantasy, and in extension what makes fantasy.
What makes that trailer look generic is the medieval european setting but with MAGIC. It can still be an original story, lot's of interesting fantasy is set in european medieval settings with magic, without being a repeat of LotR.
In order to make a trailer look not generic you'd have to replace all the whities with something else, and the medieval european stuff to a different continent, era, and/or culture.
I'm currently reading a really good fantasy book called Sixteen ways to defend a walled city, and it has no magic in it at all. It's a fairly straight take on a Roman Empire style civilisation, but in amade up world. It's more of an alterante history book than fantasy, yet, the simple fact that the world is made believe makes me put it in the fantasy genre. Let's see if a Dragon riding warlock shows up.
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Post by dogbot on Sept 20, 2021 9:29:51 GMT
I mean, I generalised a bit, but I think that criticism is basically accurate (maybe Min is an exception, she's pretty cool). It's still a pretty good series overall, I just don't think it holds up particularly well on the gender front. Anyway, to bring it back on topic, the retrograde gender politics could easily be improved by an adaptation. I hope they do it. It doesn't hold up on the gender front, but honestly, what male-written fantasy does? I'm struggling to think of a female character written by a man who is a well-rounded, well drawn portrait of an actual person, honestly. I still quite like the Wheel of Time as a series, but it comes across as if it was written by someone coming out of the 50s and wanting to impress with characters... and falling rather short. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 20, 2021 10:22:47 GMT
I can't think of many male fantasy characters that are a well-rounded, well drawn portrait of an actual person either though --- This is a pretty cool list of fantasy books, and a fair few of them have non-white-european settings and authors: www.npr.org/2021/08/18/1027159166/best-books-science-fiction-fantasy-past-decadeSome of those sound like they'd make pretty cool movies or tv shows. That said, I don't think it's only having a white historical European setting that can make things look generic. That trailer in particular just has very generic lines and the shots and designs are right out of the LotR movies... but those movies themselves looked pretty distinctive at the time. While not exactly pure Fantasy, things like Spartacus or Penny Dreadful or even GoT managed to at least throw in some interesting visual style or settings or cinematography that made them stand out. |
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Post by dogbot on Sept 20, 2021 10:30:01 GMT
Fair point.  There's some very good books indeed on that list and quite a few that are on my reading list, too. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2021 11:37:41 GMT
I just gave up on this on Book 4.
I was sick of Nynaeve tugging her braid and moaning about everything, while Rand was sulking and refusing to believe in his destiny and everyone was just taking forever to do anything. Each book seemed like it started off okay, then did several chapters of reminding me what had happened in the previous books and then had everyone travel to the next place they decided they needed to be, whilst denying it was actually happening to them until it was all magically resolved in a couple of dozen pages at the end. I understand the next few books are more of the same but getting increasingly poor until Sanderson takes over.
Figured there are just better things I can do with my time than read about people moaning on about each other. I'll watch it when it comes on TV.
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Post by ToomuchFluffy on Sept 20, 2021 16:04:50 GMT
Sorry to hear that. I only really started to have trouble with it later on, perhaps with 7-10. But to be honest, I don't expect to be entertained by books all of the time. I would never have finished a lot of good books with that attitude. A lot of the journeying, slow character development and all of that can just take a lot of time. I guess it can sometimes be difficult for authors to decide how to handle that, what to keep and what to cut and so on. Jordan wasn't very good with that, especially later on.
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Post by arnvidr on Sept 21, 2021 10:47:50 GMT
This trailer made me actually start the re-read of this series that I'd been thinking about for 15-20 years. Can't even remember if I read book 10 book then.
Haven't even watched the trailer yet, but I assume it is more or less the first book? Thought I'd read that and the prequel before watching the show either way.
I must have been fairly young when reading the early books for the first time, so I'll be interested to see if I find them to be much worse this time around, but I've had all of these books on my shelf for so long, I'm committed to try and finish this series now. I really enjoyed the first 3 in Sanderson's Mistborn series which I read this year, so if some of that works its way into the last books of WoT it should be fine I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 10:57:13 GMT
There's one scene in the trailer that appears to be from Book 3, (Perrin related shot). The majority appears to be book 1, but there's some Aes Sedai bits that could be to do with Accepted in Book 2.
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zagibu
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Post by zagibu on Sept 21, 2021 14:08:29 GMT
But to be honest, I don't expect to be entertained by books all of the time. I would never have finished a lot of good books with that attitude. A lot of the journeying, slow character development and all of that can just take a lot of time. Yep, that's pretty much it. A lot of people I know can't read longer and slower books or book series, because they don't have the endurance or patience to get through longer, less interesting parts. It's a shame, really, because some of my favourite books are like 75% not that interesting, but the rest of them is absolutely amazing. Like Tigana, for example. It starts pretty well, then the middle part was mostly boring to me, except the chapters with Dianora/Brandin, and then the ending is some of the best shit I've ever read. |
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 21, 2021 14:43:35 GMT
I have patience for the slow stuff, but it's not an infinite well of patience. And Wheel of Time really tested it, more than any other fantasy series I can think of.
I still finished it, mind! But you could probably cut like 20, 25% of the story out, and it would be a better story for it. At least better paced.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 22, 2021 2:36:32 GMT
I still finished it, mind! But you could probably cut like 20, 25% of the story out, and it would be a better story for it. At least better paced. You could cut out about 50% of the story, given that books 5-10 could probably be cut down to one book. |
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Post by ToomuchFluffy on Sept 22, 2021 6:11:40 GMT
I don't know, maybe 6-10, The Fires of Heaven took a while to get going, but was still fairly focused as far as I remember. Like Tigana, for example. It starts pretty well, then the middle part was mostly boring to me, except the chapters with Dianora/Brandin, and then the ending is some of the best shit I've ever read. I had less trouble with Tigana (though it's just one book, so that's part of it), but Memory, Sorrow & Thorn could drag quite a bit during the second book and Green Angel Tower. Similar case with both the First and Second Covenant Chronicles. Seems to be a common problem with middle parts. I must have been fairly young when reading the early books for the first time, so I'll be interested to see if I find them to be much worse this time around, but I've had all of these books on my shelf for so long, I'm committed to try and finish this series now. I remember when I first started reading the series. It was some kind of german version that they sold as a "trilogy". As it turns out the m***** had simply cut "The Great Hunt" in the middle and so this supposed "trilogy" was incomplete and so quite confusing for me back then. I have also recently stumbled across the covers they did use. Apparently they did just grab the art from some poor, unknown fantasy series and slapped them onto this version of "Das Rad der Zeit"
Not that it got much better later. They just cut them into two books and then later three and eventually four and made up a bunch of more or less fitting titles for them. Add some awful art that didn't always have even anything to do with the content and I have ended up with quite a few pretty random or outright awful looking books.
The first half of "The Eye of the World":
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Post by drhickman1983 on Sept 22, 2021 7:26:32 GMT
As someone who has never read any of the books, the trailer was a bit... Meh.
All very dramatic, lots of ominous phrases, but the trailer felt designed-by-algorithm. Which means it comes across like every other damn trailer for every other damn thing these days.
So it's hard for a non-reader to feel excited. Might give it a go at some point though.
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neems
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Post by neems on Sept 22, 2021 7:38:38 GMT
ToomuchFluffy wtf is that? Is that Rand about to get on his giant eagle?
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 22, 2021 8:17:07 GMT
I still finished it, mind! But you could probably cut like 20, 25% of the story out, and it would be a better story for it. At least better paced. You could cut out about 50% of the story, given that books 5-10 could probably be cut down to one book. Yeah, probably true. I was trying to be generous. |
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Post by ToomuchFluffy on Sept 22, 2021 11:01:40 GMT
ToomuchFluffy wtf is that? Is that Rand about to get on his giant eagle? The cover is from some completely different series of fantasy books. They just slapped the WoT-label onto it. I don't remember which other series that was. Something I have never heard of. It was just pure happenstance that I ever even stumbled across it.
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zagibu
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Post by zagibu on Sept 22, 2021 11:17:32 GMT
Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was a good example. I was basically only interested in the parts that dealt with the king and especially his brother Josua. The rest was too much cookie cutter fantasy recipe #1 for me. But I really liked Josua and his development, so I kept going at it.
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Post by ToomuchFluffy on Sept 22, 2021 11:23:07 GMT
I usually don't mind something being a bit generic when I feel that it is well executed. And there definitely were some interesting elements like the Sithi basically being Elves, but actually for once portrayed in a way that really managed to bring across how alien they actually were in comparison to the humans.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 23, 2021 3:14:01 GMT
All very dramatic, lots of ominous phrases, but the trailer felt designed-by-algorithm. Which means it comes across like every other damn trailer for every other damn thing these days. 'Designed by algorithm' sums it up pretty well. Given it's amazon, I actually wouldn't be surprised if that was true. |
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Post by arnvidr on Sept 25, 2021 16:27:26 GMT
The interesting thing then, is if the algorithm has come up with something based on an interesting series. I find most trailers unable to tell me if I would enjoy something.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Nov 17, 2021 10:44:01 GMT
It's out in a couple of days! They're certainly not skimping on the promotion, there's Wheel of Time billboards aaaaaall over the place here.
The preview on Amazon makes it look like the narrative hook will be "one of these kids is the Chosen One, but we don't know which one it is". So I guess if anyone is watching this who hasn't read the books... uhh, maybe don't read the previous bits of this thread. Or if enough people care enough (and this gets more than two seasons, which it probably won't), we could have a separate thread for book wankers.
Anyway, that doesn't feel like a huge spoiler to me, but then I don't really remember when exactly in the series that particular titbit is revealed.
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