Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Oct 8, 2023 10:02:25 GMT
Ive not read the books and it does take a while for the a-plot to become clear as a motive but never really what the point is.
The a-plot for the entire eight episodes is: dick over Randalls friends until he has no choice but to turn to the dark side
The bad guy eventually expo dumps it a few times but basically everything that happens in the series is him orchestrating bad things happening to a few people. The problem is until he says why, its never clear why he is fannying about so much and, I suppose unless you have read the books, its never clear what the point is because until the very last scene Randall is a whiny baby who does fuck all. Why is he even bothering to corrupt him? And because he has so many plates spinning, its hard to keep track of it. Its no wonder he completely fucked it.
To dump plot quickly we do have a lot of 'tell dont show'. We are constantly told how great and powerful someone is but then the camera cuts to them crying in a room or getting beaten up. It is really hard to give a shit about the stakes when everyone seems very ordinary and lame.
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Post by deekyfun on Oct 8, 2023 11:55:03 GMT
I think this is their attempt to condense and simplify the overall plot for the sake of pacing in a 8 episode series and to make it easier to follow for non-book readers. It's hard for me to judge whether that's working or not, but I feel that it must be closer to a no than yes. I found some of it pretty confusing and I've read the books covering these part twice.
I found this series on the whole a better time than the first. I'm still struggling with the difference choices the writers are making, but I've been trying to just set that aside and consider this its own thing. I dont think they've very successfully carried across the burden Rand suffers in the initial couple of books, to be point where he just seemed to be wandering about until he was needed at the end. I think they really need to work on him. In fact, there was still quite a bit of that same wandering about shuffling pieces about until they can get to Falme.
I like some of the visual stuff, I thought the Seanchan were done quite well, and the sections with Eugene being collared. Lanfear, although here more showy than in the books, was a charismatic facsimile.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Oct 8, 2023 12:16:42 GMT
I think there's been a lack of "Rand hearing voices in his head" this season. You get a bit of introduction into who Lews Therin is, but no real sense of Rand losing it. Which is kind of necessary, because right now you've got little idea why people aren't instantly supportive of him. You got a bit of men going crazy last season, but it's the sort of thing that you probably need to be reminded of regularly.
Also, while I loved the moment with Mat blowing the horn, there's no real indication or set-up (so far) as to why Mat is important.
It's probably just them trying to cram too much into a limited space.
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Post by deekyfun on Oct 8, 2023 12:30:46 GMT
To be fair, the Rand/Lews Therin stuff doesn't start to kick in, I think, until a point just a bit beyond where they are now. I just think they needed to find a way to really sell what the prophecy of the dragon really means, how a young boy might struggle to come to grip with that news. I do wonder if the shows choice to instead focus the first series on it being a mystery kind of screwed up their ability to really develop Rand in the way needed for the next steps.
I agree that Matt has been messed about with too, and he was missing a lot of his stuff (Has any Manetherin stuff come up at all - maybe I just missed it). To be honest, they've also properly mucked around with Perrin too (remember that wife he killed?). I think that's why I kept trying to keep that 'but the book..' voice out of my head, and it does seem they are trying to approximately get to the main book points, but it is super hard to truly get out of that headspace. I'm fascinated by the non-book readers experiences with the show.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Oct 8, 2023 13:43:00 GMT
Are they trying to do one book per season?
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Post by deekyfun on Oct 8, 2023 13:51:44 GMT
So far they seem to be.
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technoish
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Post by technoish on Oct 8, 2023 14:55:44 GMT
I agree there is a lot of stuff going and not knowing half the time what it is, but I don't fully agree on the Rand stuff. The wheel of time / reincarnation point of the Dragon is central to Moraine and Ishmael plot drivers. It feels a fairly common fantasy plot thing - two big bad/good entities bigger than humans, battle over the ages, with some arbitrary Rules to keep things interesting (plot armoured).
He also is worried ths whole time about going mad - he seeks out the gentled dude for his help.
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Post by anthonyuk on Oct 19, 2023 20:51:42 GMT
Haven't read the books and found the second season alot easier to follow, to the point I'm looking forward to more now.
Some things still feel like maguffins or concepts lifted wholesale from LOR (that damn horn) and I wasn't 100% on how everyone including 3rd parties ended up where they were at the end or why.
As a whole though,I feel they righted the main issue I had with the first season. Namely slowing the pace enough to allow the actors to actually act and actually create a sense of drama. Alot of stuff is still thrown at you, but it at least builds to a finale that feels earnt, rather than just a list of meaninglessness things happen.
The reincarnation theme along with drip fed pieces of sci-fi is a big enough carrot to dangle for me to watch another season at least, find the concept fascinating. Just hope the payoff/reveal is worth it.
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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Oct 19, 2023 22:23:16 GMT
Second season was a step up on S1. I have enjoyed it so far and the Seanchan were cool in both design and as an antagonist.
I appreciate there is probably a vast amount of material in the books but they have had 16 hours in which to tell this story. Great films can tell a story in 2-3 hours and still feel epic in scope and scale.
I'm still unclear on a lot of the overall direction of the stortline other than there's some bad wizard and his pals who pop up every now and again and need to be vanquished.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Oct 19, 2023 23:38:59 GMT
Basically, there's a Dark One, who is in a magic prison but is steadily breaking free. There's a prophecy about someone called the Dragon Reborn (a reincarnation of a dead warrior named Lews Therin) who will save the world at The Last Battle against the Dark One. Yes yes yes, I know, I know.
Anyway, that's Rand. He's super powerful and people want to use/recruit/control him. But the main thrust of the story is that he needs to prepare and be ready for a final confrontation 10 or so giant volumes worth of text in the future.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 20, 2023 14:42:13 GMT
It's very similar to Game of Thrones central plot-wise, just without all the politicking, backstabbing and bastardry that made the first 3/4 of GoT really stand out as something exceptional.
Really my main issue with it is that the characterisation is a bit rubbish and they don't feel like believable real people who are the product of their environment. I don't really care about the fate of any of them in the way I did for the Starks or Sam or Tyrion or Clegane or Brienne etc
Still, Winter is Coming (eventually) and Dragons are back to help (sort of).
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Oct 20, 2023 15:22:40 GMT
Ive not read the books but do know a book wanker and one thing it seems to have explained badly or not at all is what the wheel actually is and why it needs breaking/protecting.
Like I vaguely know that the wheel occasionally dumps out a randall and his scooby gang to affect destiny or something, which is why they are important and not, as it would seem in the show, absolutely fucking useless.
And that the last randalls scooby gang are now all bad guys because Lewis never gave them enough pats on the head as far as I can tell.
But it never really touches on this in the show, I dont think.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 20, 2023 15:30:21 GMT
Huh, well I certainly had no idea there was an actual wheel with some sort of agency in play. Though I did get the reincarnation aspect, I assumed the wheel was just a metaphor for how empires rise and fall.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Oct 20, 2023 15:38:12 GMT
It's a metaphor for the circular nature of time in this universe.
It's a like spinning wheel and all of life and existence is the fabric it spins out. Fate is tied up in the fabric of the wheel, each person or element a strand. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.
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Post by ToomuchFluffy on Oct 20, 2023 20:00:38 GMT
One thing that is a fairly big deal and that is explained early (in the books) is essentially that the wheel occasionally "thinks" that a ta'veren is required to keep equilibrium though they never put it like that. So somebody like Rand is spun out into the world to course correct and - frankly I don't remember the wording exactly -, but the weave pretty much doesn't treat them as just some random anonymous chess piece on the board like everyone else. And that's why coincidence plays in their favour so to speak.
The whole ta'veren thing was a neat bit of world building that did provide plot armor and allowed for easy twists that wouldn't have been as believable otherwise.
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