Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 9:19:31 GMT
Like I said previously, I do prefer, generally the 'vania' part of metroidvania but it wasnt so much that the combat was easy, its just every enemy is beaten in the same way and does more or less the same thing.
I mean, really, every encounter including the bosses is the same thing: a memory game. Memorise their pattern and youre done.
But, yes, I suppose im more used to/want combat being a bit more organic when I suppose the above is exactly what they were going for. I suspect, though, thats why most people think the EMMIs make the game come alive because they are the only enemy that is relatively unpredicatable.
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Post by Duffking on Nov 8, 2021 11:42:01 GMT
Most good bosses are memory and pattern recognition though, IMO. Perhaps the execution of some of it could have been more challenging but eh. I found it all very enjoyable.
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Phattso
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Post by Phattso on Nov 8, 2021 11:44:26 GMT
I dunno - that sounds excessively reductive to me. Yes the bosses all have patterns, but they are randomised. It's not "just" a matter of memorisation, you actually need to execute a variety of moves to a) survive, and b) whittle down the health bars. Seems unfair to criticise Dreaad for having boss battles with a variety of attack patterns each of which has a tell. I mean, isn't that most 2D boss battles? I'm thinking of Hollow Knight, and they boiled down to the same except that your choice of trinkets could either render them trivial or fuck you up completely. That's organic to a point, I guess.  All I remember from the last Castlevania game I beat was the bosses did all that but were bouncing around the arena a lot more. Perhaps that's it? The static nature of each encounter does limit the experience. I did try that recent release Bloodstained, which I think is basically Castlevania without the license? Don't think I lasted two hours. So yeah, if that's your jam I can see how the other side of that coin might be a damp squib. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 11:47:25 GMT
A good boss fight feels, to use that word again, more organic. It is pattern recognition to an extent but it will fall back, flank you, rush you and vary up its behaviour so it feels like you are fighting something intelligent rather than just a Simon.
These are all:
Attack one: Jump
Attack two: Duck
Attack Three: Dash
Attack four: Parry
Repeat until dead.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 11:51:17 GMT
Yes, I loved Bloodstained, I thought that was excellent.
I dont think Metroid is a bad game, per se, I just thought it wasted a lot of opportunities. But then they very deliberately did that so, yeah, if its your bag, fine. I suppose I'm just one mediocre meta-critic review that people hate tweet at.
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Phattso
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Post by Phattso on Nov 8, 2021 11:56:45 GMT
A good boss fight feels, to use that word again, more organic. It is pattern recognition to an extent but it will fall back, flank you, rush you and vary up its behaviour so it feels like you are fighting something intelligent rather than just a Simon. These are all: Attack one: Jump Attack two: Duck Attack Three: Dash Attack four: Parry Repeat until dead. I really don't recognise the game in that description. The attacks are definitely randomised, although yes each one does have a reaction that's optimal, but it's absolutely not the same four steps on loop at all. I thought the robo-mini bosses embodied exactly what you're talking about actually - they could be a handful. But yeah - I don't think these bosses were aiming for unpredictable dynamicism. They were aiming for classic spectacle and readability. And given the contortions of the controls, that's for the best. Hollow Knight was definitely more dynamic, and had those elements, but it also had a drastically pared back move set to allow for that. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 12:05:12 GMT
It was also a lot more strategic. Depending on loadout, there are a different ways you can beat the boss whereas here there is literally one and you have to memorise the pattern to do it.
Although, to be fair, that is partly due to the devotion to keeping it classic, so its not like they had an expansive armoury of 100s of weapons to balance against.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 12:11:35 GMT
It was more the use of the word "pointless." To me the combat and enemies are integral to the enjoyment of the game. Most Metroidvania games have trivial combat for the most part - the enemies are there just to get in your way and keep you engaged while you traverse the world. I don't see the more challenging fights as spikes, they literally are combat challenges, which is why you're locked in a room with them. They're gatekeepers, which is the point of bosses/minibosses. Make the general combat more difficult or complex and backtracking and exploring becomes a chore. I don't think it's flaw, it's the design of the genre.
It's similar to Zelda - the combat has never been difficult or complex but it's engaging enough and without it you'd be wandering around doing nothing for large amounts of time. It serves its purpose. In the case of Dread, they've made the combat a bigger feature than previous games adding a very good dash, counters and the more challenging encounters. The EMMIs are great but don't define the game in my opinion
Even more challenging 2D action games like Mega Man have trivial enemy encounter/combat in their stages - it's the bosses that are a challenge. The stages are fun and engaging though
I'd be interested in an example of a 2D action game you think has more complex combat, especially a Metriodvania. Metroid, the Iga Castlevanias, Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge - they're all the same - you shoot/hit enemies and they die
edit: Noticed in your other comment you mentioned builds and stuff. Yeah, that's just not Metroid. It would be a totally different game if they did that
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 12:16:34 GMT
Almost all of them. In most games you have a variety of enemies that do different things to kill in a variety of ways with a variety of weapons.
Every non-boss in Metroid Dread is 'flash-parry-counter'.
And because there is no XP or levelling anything you eventually stop even doing that and just run past them.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 12:22:55 GMT
To be honest, part of the reason I love the counter is because it means enemies come to me, makes things much easier when I just want to head through an area to get somewhere. A hard mode without the flashes might have been interesting though
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mrpon
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Post by mrpon on Nov 8, 2021 12:23:04 GMT
Axiom Verge is the epitome of variety! There's about 20 guns in the game and some don't even kill the enemies.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 12:26:40 GMT
Almost all of them. In most games you have a variety of enemies that do different things to kill in a variety of ways with a variety of weapons. Every non-boss in Metroid Dread is 'flash-parry-counter'. And because there is no XP or levelling anything you eventually stop even doing that and just run past them. Maybe try another playthrough without using the counter. There's definitely variety in the enemies, I think it's the parry/counter that simplifies it |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 12:28:26 GMT
Axiom Verge is the epitome of variety! There's about 20 guns in the game and some don't even kill the enemies. I think I used most of the weapons for about 30 seconds, thought 'huh, that's cool' and then went back to whatever I was using. To be fair, I do the same in Dark Souls and anything like that |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 12:30:11 GMT
Nah, its gone, now. Phattso kindly loaned it to me for a week and, tbh, Im happy with just completing the campaign and leaving it.
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mrpon
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Post by mrpon on Nov 8, 2021 12:35:08 GMT
Axiom Verge is the epitome of variety! There's about 20 guns in the game and some don't even kill the enemies. I think I used most of the weapons for about 30 seconds, thought 'huh, that's cool' and then went back to whatever I was using. To be fair, I do the same in Dark Souls and anything like that Maybe try another playthrough without using the same weapon  |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 12:37:34 GMT
Nah, its gone, now. Phattso kindly loaned it to me for a week and, tbh, Im happy with just completing the campaign and leaving it. Fairs. I'm glad you enjoyed it anyway (I think?). It's a good game! |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 12:37:40 GMT
Hah!
But... since we are on the subject, what does hard mode do? Does it remove the flash/make parrying harder or does it just make the enemies hit harder when you miss?
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 12:38:06 GMT
I think I used most of the weapons for about 30 seconds, thought 'huh, that's cool' and then went back to whatever I was using. To be fair, I do the same in Dark Souls and anything like that Maybe try another playthrough without using the same weapon I enjoyed it though. I'm a basic bitch
My comment to nick was because it seemed to impact his enjoyment of it. I loved Axiom Verge so it didn't matter about the other weapons. The combat in Axiom Verge was no different to Metroid (sans counter) to me. It was never difficult, even the bosses were straight forward. The other weapons weren't needed. They were fun and I liked getting them but most of them were just for the sake of being different
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 12:55:07 GMT
Nah, its gone, now. Phattso kindly loaned it to me for a week and, tbh, Im happy with just completing the campaign and leaving it. Fairs. I'm glad you enjoyed it anyway (I think?). It's a good game! I did and it is good. I think my problem is that, even though I didn’t buy it, I do play a lot of metroidvania games and most of them do it better and cheaper. If you’re releasing it at a premium price, it’s getting judged at a premium price and I don’t think this brought anything new to the party and, for me, lacked in comparison to stuff half the price. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 13:08:38 GMT
Yeah, I'm just playing it as a Metroid game. Metroid, Castlevania, Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, Blasphemous all do something slightly different and I'm happy to enjoy them all for what they are. I do enjoy the RPG mechanics and all the different abilities and weapons in Castlevania but that's what I play Castlevania for. Similarly with the Dark Soulsiness of HK or slower more punishing Blasphemous. Judged as a Metroid sequel, I think it's a great entry and adds quite a bit of its own
Cost is a different matter though and £50 is a bit much, but what can you do. HK puts a lot of games to shame in that regard
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Phattso
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Post by Phattso on Nov 8, 2021 13:10:56 GMT
Fairs. I'm glad you enjoyed it anyway (I think?). It's a good game! I did and it is good. I think my problem is that, even though I didn’t buy it, I do play a lot of metroidvania games and most of them do it better and cheaper. If you’re releasing it at a premium price, it’s getting judged at a premium price and I don’t think this brought anything new to the party and, for me, lacked in comparison to stuff half the price. Yeah, Hollow Knight really reset expectations on that front. It soaked up 100% of my game time for three months or so, and cost £11. Insane. Metroid Dread soaked up 100% of my game time for one week, and cost me £42. But hey... what a week! I reckon if I played more of the genre then Dread's weaknesses would've narked me more, as they have for NickJoe. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 13:44:30 GMT
Blasphemous, Guacamelee 1+2, Bloodstained, Axiom Verge and Hollow Knight were all brilliant and all under 20 quid (I think). Even something like Gato Roboto was only a fiver and I really enjoyed that.
But, yeah, I think it sounds like I dislike Metroid more than I do. I just didnt think it was anything special, but still decent.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 13:47:15 GMT
Guacamelee is the only one of those I haven't played because I'm worried it'll be too zany for me
Have you played Axiom Verge 2 yet?
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 13:51:50 GMT
No. Its on the list. I probably should move it up, tbh.
Oh, and Touhou luna nights was short but sweet if you are looking for others to play. I think its free on game pass.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 19:39:44 GMT
Does anyone know if it's possible to block off your progress in this? Been searching for ages for a way forward and can't find anything - a lot of stuff is just blocked off to me so there's not a lot to explore. Used the radar all over the place and can't find anything - nothing standing out on the map. Don't want to look it up, just want to make sure I'm missing something (I probably am)
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deez
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Post by deez on Nov 8, 2021 20:05:33 GMT
Shouldn't be. Follow your nose to the way the game seems to be leading you, and shoot a few walls as you explore, just in case...
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 20:54:02 GMT
I did it
It was finding the green teleporter after getting the space jump \o/
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 8, 2021 20:54:12 GMT
You can't gate progress but you can get well lost. I did find that pretty much every time I got properly stuck, the door I hadn't checked was on the other side of the map.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 8, 2021 20:59:37 GMT
Got a lot of practice in with the purple EMMI finding that. He probably won overall but chinned him enough times
It was bouncing through the water to get to a ledge. Sneaky!
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 9, 2021 14:29:25 GMT
Bongo HeraclesHow do you rate Ori and the Blind Forest? I found the poor combat in that game made it quite boring. It was more of a platform game like Celeste or Meat Boy, where you spend most of your time avoiding spikes, which made it dull as a Metroidvania for me I had another look at Guacamelee and the tone does put me off quite a bit. Not a fan of the graphics either unfortunately
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