MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 7, 2023 10:10:44 GMT
Intrigued by BG3 but reticent having not played the previous titles and never having clicked with D&D systems. A few questions for the good people of the panel: 1) is prior knowledge of the series important and is there a 'story so far' explainer? 2) is Larian's plot/writing better than D:OS2? I played about 30hrs of that but the story and characters never really grabbed me and was the main reason I just dropped it when I hit a big difficulty spike. 3) how good is the onboarding for people that don't know D&D? I have played D&D based games, D:OS2, Planescape, Pillars and have never felt anything other than avrious degrees of confused and overwhelmed. 4) any similarities with Dragon Age Origins? Absolutely loved that game for the writing, the plot (even if unoriginal) and the characters. Plus the combat made intuitive sense to me. I actually quite like Bioware's take on turn-based. KOTOR was good in that regard too. Nothing since has scratched the same itch. 5) anyone tried using a controller over Sunshine/Moonlight or Steamlink? I'd ideally be alternating between the desk and the couch for a long game like this. Seems like added latency wouldn't be an issue if the controls are good enough and the UI readable for distance. Is the PC with controller = PS5 or too early to say? As best I can: 1. No, you need no prior knowledge. There's a recap video somewhere, but (so far) there isn't anything major in this that you could not understand having not played the previous games 2. I like the writing in this more than D:OS2. So far all the characters have something interesting going on. 3. I think you'll be ok with your experience, but you might want to lower the difficulty until you get used to everything. (the difficulty can be switched on the fly with no penalty afaik) 4. Been a while since I played DA:O, but the combat feels pretty similar and crunchy to me 5. Don't know about steamlink, but I've had zero issues playing this on a 360 controller. It might not be the most optimal way to play, but it's more than good enough imo |
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 7, 2023 10:16:13 GMT
Really helpful thanks.
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Post by JuniorFE on Aug 7, 2023 10:17:06 GMT
I only have an answer for 3 and even then it's not really complete, but from what I know about D&D the various character systems look decently simpler here at first glance. The low level cap leaves less room for complicated builds to begin with, and multiclassing especially looks more accessible. Of course, whether that means things are simple enough for you not to feel as overwhelmed as in, say, Divinity, I'm not really sure 😅 You could always wait and see how JonFE gets on with it if and when we start this. If the old dog can learn this new trick you should be fine too  |
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 7, 2023 10:28:27 GMT
I've not played a huge amount, but I'm liking the writing so far. Characters have been excellent, particularly your companions. The side characters are pretty good too.
Not sure if you played the first D:OS, but I would say that the writing here is as equal a step up from D:OS2 as D:OS2 was to D:OS1. It takes itself a bit more seriously than those games, although still manages to be funny at times too.
I wouldn't say the combat was anything like Dragon Age Origin (that game had combat more like the original BG games - which is why I just couldn't get into it). It is similar to the D:OS series, although I would say it is more polished than that. Would agree it feels crunchier those previous Larian games.
I don't know anything about D&D and I'm muddling through the systems. It can be quite overwhelming and I'm spending quite a bit of time looking at abilities when leveling up (for companions I'm mostly just going with what is automatically selected). I'm following it all though. My only really complaint is that I would like a little more info to understand the percentage chances and what I should be expecting damage wise, the lack of those might help some people not get too confused though.
Not played the BG games much (as already mention, real time with pause is something I've never been able to get onboard with), so I don't know the stories in those. Not had issue following the plot so far. I have heard it does reference those games a bit, but I expect it won't assume knowledge and those will mostly be more along the lines of Easter eggs than anything crucial.
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 7, 2023 11:57:21 GMT
Intrigued by BG3 but reticent having not played the previous titles and never having clicked with D&D systems. A few questions for the good people of the panel: 1) is prior knowledge of the series important and is there a 'story so far' explainer? 2) is Larian's plot/writing better than D:OS2? I played about 30hrs of that but the story and characters never really grabbed me and was the main reason I just dropped it when I hit a big difficulty spike. 3) how good is the onboarding for people that don't know D&D? I have played D&D based games, D:OS2, Planescape, Pillars and have never felt anything other than avrious degrees of confused and overwhelmed. 4) any similarities with Dragon Age Origins? Absolutely loved that game for the writing, the plot (even if unoriginal) and the characters. Plus the combat made intuitive sense to me. I actually quite like Bioware's take on turn-based. KOTOR was good in that regard too. Nothing since has scratched the same itch. 5) anyone tried using a controller over Sunshine/Moonlight or Steamlink? I'd ideally be alternating between the desk and the couch for a long game like this. Seems like added latency wouldn't be an issue if the controls are good enough and the UI readable for distance. Is the PC with controller = PS5 or too early to say? 1. So far the story has been completely standalone and the only real references to previous games I've seen have been little snippets in books, which are just references and entirely optional. You'll obviously have more context for the setting if you've played previous DnD cRPGs or the tabletop game, but it doesn't seem to be necessary to know anything at all going in.
2. I'm not far enough in to judge the plot yet (don't think I'm even 1/4 through), but so far the writing has been good, the companions have all been great and the quests are fun with a lot of room for role playing and different approaches.
3. It explains things with tooltips and hints like most modern games and there's tons of easily googlable info about DnD 5e if you need it. The combat is very similar to D:OS2 but with DnD rules and skills. DnD has less crazy builds and interactions than Divinity and is a little more trad fantasy in both setting and mechanics. I haven't felt the need for any particular deep knowledge or specific builds or anything like that, and you could always drop the difficulty to make it even less important.
It's hard to say how you'd get along with it as you seem to have really liked DA:O and that's a very complicated and at times difficult game that's very much in a tabletop RPG mould, but you've bounced off other similar games.
4. It's a fantasy RPG that's heavy on the talking and you have companions that you can have various relationships with, who have their own stories and companion quests. Mechanically it's very similar apart from real time with pause combat vs turn based. In terms of tone, it's less randomly "wacky" than D:OS but not as dark and drab as Dragon Age.
5. No idea, but it's not a game that's reliant on speedy reactions or smooth frames. At least the dialogue text can be scaled, so reading shouldn't be a big issue.
Overall it sounds like it would mostly hinge on how much you like the writing and characters, and that's not something we can really judge yet (and depends on taste anyway). Maybe watch a little bit of a stream or LP to see it in action. Christopher Odd is doing a Let's Play for example, and he's usually tolerable. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 7, 2023 12:34:42 GMT
Thanks all.
I wouldn't say I loved the Dragon Age Origins combat, more that it made sense to me in a way that the more pure D&D based combat in other games hasn't, so it was never a barrier to progress and there was still fun a sense of empowerment with more levels rather than just more complexity.
It's a long time ago but I recall it was possible to manually define rules for party AI along the lines of if X happens then do Y, which I gradually refined to the extent that my party became an efficient largely autonomous killing machine. I then only really set the first move for each member pre-combat (for backstabs and buffs etc) and beyond that point was mostly just observing and intervening if there was an obvious problem. It didn't need loads of in combat micromanagement which I liked.
Sounds like BG3 is a bit more involved than this but I'll give it a go. You've all convinced me I'd enjoy it.
Think it'll have to wait until after Starfield (unless that turns out to be guff) though. With RPGs I find I have to commit to playing it regularly and exclusively otherwise I forget what's going on and how to do stuff and can rarely be bothered to start again.
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Aug 7, 2023 12:35:14 GMT
The writing is definitely a step up from the Divinity games. I’m no D&D expert either, never played the TT version, but this has been fairly easy to get into. Although how reactions work still has me slightly bemused.
Whilst gameplay-wise it isn’t overly similar to DA:O, the overall vibe and feeling of it keeps bringing back warm feelings from that game. It’s not as quite as good yet imo, but the cinematic take on fantasy rpgs, interesting characters and tactical combat definitely feels a bit DA:O overall.
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 7, 2023 12:59:13 GMT
It's a long time ago but I recall it was possible to manually define rules for party AI along the lines of if X happens then do Y, which I gradually refined to the extent that my party became an efficient largely autonomous killing machine. I then only really set the first move for each member pre-combat (for backstabs and buffs etc) and beyond that point was mostly just observing and intervening if there was an obvious problem. It didn't need loads of in combat micromanagement which I liked. Sounds like BG3 is a bit more involved than this but I'll give it a go. You've all convinced me I'd enjoy it. To be clear, you can't automate the party at all. Combat is completely turn based so you control each party member separately when it's their turn and you're making decisions about every action taken. On the one hand it's a relaxed way to play and you have lots of time to think things through, but it also means combat can take a long time and is fairly involved. There aren't nearly as many "trash" fights to slog through as in the Dragon Age games though. |
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Aug 7, 2023 13:05:17 GMT
Yeah, that’s the one thing I’m wary about with this. I never ended up finishing either of the DOS games, mainly because the stories were a bit nothing and the further you the longer and longer fights got, so I just got bored and gave up.
Fingers crossed they’ve not done the same here.
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 7, 2023 13:11:31 GMT
That's pretty much why I stopped D:OS2. If I recall correctly, I had about 5 goes at a boss battle on a boat and each one took ages before I still lost, and I just wasn't invested enough to keep trying. It's a very high bar for me these days unfortunately. If I don't care enough about the story & spending time in the world, I just give up and lose interest pretty quickly. There are too many other ways to spend my time, never mind other games competing for attention.
That being said, on those rare occasions that I'm sufficently hooked by an RPG I'll do >200hrs of meticulous exploration and love every second. Really hoping both Starfield and this clear this bar as it's been a while (probably not since Witcher 3).
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 7, 2023 13:18:41 GMT
I couldn't be less interested in Starfield, specifically because I don't care about the story. At least not the "create your own fun" stories that Bethesda are into; I prefer mine to be tightly woven by writers, with a lot of opportunity to choose and express myself within them.
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Aug 7, 2023 14:31:05 GMT
I didn’t finish either Divinity game either, I defeated Bracchus Rex in the first game, which was basically the end of the game to me. After that I had no idea what it wanted me to do, it was just aimless wandering and coming up against things I couldn’t get past. Eventually I used a guide to get a bit further but I can’t tell you anything of what the game was about.
In the second one I escaped from the concentration camp and that felt like the end of the game. Explored a fair bit outside but can’t tell you what the goal was or what it was about, no idea.
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Post by Chopsen on Aug 7, 2023 14:55:46 GMT
Had similar experience in D:OS2.
Got really in to but then in the 3rd act it all just seemed to get lost and unfocused. All the threads of the narrative just frayed out in to nothingness.
I actually gave it a second play through because I assumed it was just the usual me not paying attention, but same thing just happened again.
Thing is the whole experience started pretty strongly for me, so was really disappointed.
If the same happens in BG3 I'm going to be well pissed off.
So far there a lot of parallels in the story: start off on a ship, fight your way off and then it crashes. Wake up on a beach and have a doodah stuck to you that you don't understand. Start a questing, and find a religious cult...
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Aug 7, 2023 15:00:45 GMT
I’ll avoid dos2 in the lead up to bg3 coming out then, good tip.
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 7, 2023 15:08:48 GMT
Even though I also stopped D:OS2 around act 3 as well (can't recall why now, think I got a bit lost as to where to go next), I still thought it was one of the best RPGs I had played. The freedom to allow you to approach things your own way and the opportunities to roleplay your character were second to none. Certainly a flawed game, but all the more interesting for it, compared to, say, The Witcher 3 that didn't even really allow much player expression even in its combat.
So far, at least, it feels like BG3 is the heavily polished version of that. Hopefully it stays at the quality level I've seen so far. In which case, I would recommend just playing this rather than D:OS2.
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neems
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Post by neems on Aug 7, 2023 15:35:52 GMT
Also, the voice acting is stellar. So far everybody is smashing it.
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 7, 2023 15:42:39 GMT
Interesting. I think I lack the imagination to actually properly role-play in an RPG. I always end up being myself doing whatever I would do in a given situation. I guess I play them more like immersive sims. I tell myself I'll roleplay on my second go, but I almost never go back.
I guess that's why first-person and a more curated experience (in so far as to how to do things) is my jam. Though I loved going through DA:O as a sort of alternative personal LoTR quest.
Fair point about Bethesda lacking a decent central narrative. I guess the environmental story telling and organically discoverable side quests are enough for me in those. There's plenty of 'what happened here?' / 'what is this place' intrigue to stumble upon and that's enough for me to keep exploring. Elden Ring managed a bit of this recently, though the vibe was more stressful for obvious reasons.
With D:OS2 I don't really remember any real sense of exploration and wonder. It was very much 'go to this point on the map and do a thing'. In BG3 do you explore much or is the path largely predefined?
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 7, 2023 16:22:38 GMT
Even though I also stopped D:OS2 around act 3 as well (can't recall why now, think I got a bit lost as to where to go next), I still thought it was one of the best RPGs I had played. The freedom to allow you to approach things your own way and the opportunities to roleplay your character were second to none. Certainly a flawed game, but all the more interesting for it, compared to, say, The Witcher 3 that didn't even really allow much player expression even in its combat. So far, at least, it feels like BG3 is the heavily polished version of that. Hopefully it stays at the quality level I've seen so far. In which case, I would recommend just playing this rather than D:OS2. Yeah, the mechanical richness and freedom to approach things in different ways is what set D:OS2 apart, despite some pretty big shortcomings (bad main plot, the silly armour system and a very buggy final act). I've played it twice and really like it, but I can understand why a lot of people didn't click with it.
If they've managed to marry the good things from the D:OS games with a decent plot and more solid writing it'll probably end up among my top RPGs ever. So far it seems very promising, but carts before horses and all that. With D:OS2 I don't really remember any real sense of exploration and wonder. It was very much 'go to this point on the map and do a thing'. In BG3 do you explore much or is the path largely predefined? There's definitely stuff to find as you rummage through the maps, but it's not a Bethesda game where that can be the whole game for hundreds of hours if that's what you want. D:OS2 also had a lot of hidden stuff and locations and side quests that were completely missable, but I don't know if you're looking for more than that or if you just didn't find them. If you gave up at the first ship fight you've also only seen the opening of the game. |
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Aug 7, 2023 17:44:23 GMT
I still find D:OS2 to be an excellent tactics game and a mostly annoying cRPG. The combat is all great, but when the difficulty spikes happen the complete lack of interest in the narrative, world or characters just makes it a total drag. I genuinely can't remember anything about the plot, characters or the world building in the slightest. Something about a Bishop/Deacon/Cardinal? I barely remember there being any interesting mission structures either, but it's all just washed away. I think there was a ship. I got to the last act and got stuck in a sewer and just decided to fuck it off.
Then stuff like the armour system or the fucking item scaling being very Diablo, so you end up having a lvl 8 butter knife being more useful than the big flaming sword you got off a boss earlier on... I just hate that stuff instinctively. Luckily not a problem D&D ever has.
Still at least it's not the shite Bethesda ship.
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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Aug 7, 2023 22:37:58 GMT
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 8, 2023 3:06:25 GMT
Just realised you can throw potions and elixirs from your inventory on the ground and they have a small splash radius. Every party member standing in it gets the effect, so you can buff, heal or cure multiple party members at the same time with a single potion/elixir if they're grouped closely. I suppose you could get some pinch heals and stuff off in combat emergencies as well.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 8, 2023 4:10:14 GMT
Just got my first brain worm. The gith lady doesn't seem to care yet; I assume she will eventually.
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Frog
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Post by Frog on Aug 8, 2023 7:33:15 GMT
So I looked up the best class to multispec with my Cleric.
Fucking bard.
Also where is Rodderz, I thought he would be all over this game.
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Post by LegendaryApe on Aug 8, 2023 7:42:59 GMT
One of us! One of us!
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 8, 2023 7:55:19 GMT
I love how, as a bard (the best class), you can use a bonus action at the end of your turn to just break out the flute and play a variety of songs. They don't even do anything, they just change the battle music to another jaunty tune.
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Post by JuniorFE on Aug 8, 2023 8:24:03 GMT
I love how, as a bard (the best class), you can use a bonus action at the end of your turn to just break out the flute and play a variety of songs. They don't even do anything, they just change the battle music to another jaunty tune. That sounds incredibly moddable, actually. Imagine for example you're trapped in a room with a bunch of Tieflings, you hit a big crit to take one out turn one, then you whip out the flute and The Only Thing They Fear Is You* starts playing or something *(insert your favourite/most fitting OST here) |
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MolarAm🔵
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Bad at games
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 8, 2023 8:26:56 GMT
It's like how I had Take On Me (Take! On! Me!) as my helicopter bombing run music in Phantom Pain.
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Post by Chopsen on Aug 8, 2023 8:32:51 GMT
With my skillz, it'd be the theme song from Flumps
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Aug 8, 2023 14:25:14 GMT
Benny Hill theme all the way.
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Post by gibroon on Aug 9, 2023 11:31:51 GMT
Really enjoying this, every area just grows arms and legs and feet and hands and nails. I suppose that is the D&D idea, so many variations in story and in combat.
Rolled a Dwarf Warlock (My first ever real D&D game I was a dwarf), not done any multiclass builds yet. I'm getting near Lvl 5 so will probably wait till then before dabbling with builds.
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