myk
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Post by myk on Aug 12, 2023 9:44:25 GMT
"We're spending so long making sure the graphics don't run like ass we don't have time to make the story long or good" is the vibe I get from that. BG3 feels like a return to what RPGs used to be before everything got dumbed down to Bioware style good/bad/neutral responses.
As much as I like Fallout 3 & 4, storyline and player choice-wise they were a massive drop from Fallout 2.
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Post by JuniorFE on Aug 12, 2023 9:54:36 GMT
Didn't we have some similarly pissy comments (especially from Ubisoft) around the time of Elden Ring's release? And, on a more positive note, developers being flabbergasted about Tears of the Kingdom's physics (I remember a Bloomberg article in particular with gems such as "biggest programming flex")? Seems like the big name developers are just a little bit angry that some uppity "lesser studios" ("lesser consoles" in TotK's case, I suppose) are getting the spotlight instead of their latest big dick, quintuple-A release
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Aug 12, 2023 10:04:02 GMT
To everyone who's playing this now what are your feelings on some people in the game industry saying we shouldn't expect more out of the AAA space just because of this game's success? It's absolute horse shit. For multiple reasons, like Bethesda or Bioware clearly also spend 5+ years working on things with massive budgets and staffs, so they've got absolutely no fucking excuse. Consumers are perfectly aware that smaller studios can't make something so big, or fully voiced and motion captured etc. etc. Disco Elysium set new standards for creativity and writing, that was a small indie endeavour and the big AAA devs still can't actually even make that. But ignoring the scale BG3 is setting standards on how immersive, detailed and just deep the whole game can be. You can make a shorter game with that as your focus, or a less graphically pretty one. It's setting the standards that people will actually buy deep crunchy games if you put the effort in. Where as Bethesda and Bioware have been continually just stripping stuff out of their games to make them accessible, so they're just big hollowed out edifices. Bethesda ones have a long tradition of being MASSIVE but mostly copy+pasted and quite boring writing wise. Bioware have gone way closer to action RPG, what was the last deep game they made? Dragon Age 1? Inquisition no matter how many spells you learned you could only put 8 on the hotbar, to make the UI simple and they just fully removed buffing/healing spells from the game to make it simpler. But it just means all you do is tediously select attack spells. On that note, BG3 has such good attention to detail that even the hotbar is a delight. The way you can reconfigure it all sorts of ways and filter for things you need. It's just really good UX work.
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Post by deekyfun on Aug 12, 2023 10:39:16 GMT
To me the AAA space is just a dearth of anything except system-pushing graphics and a smorgasbord of monetization systems required to justify executive and shareholder payment schemes that have little to do with the actual game itself, except to diminish it in tiny increments.
Few of my modern favourite games sit in that sphere. What seems to happen is that smaller teams have the good ideas, and then the amorphous entities just 'borrow' them, shackle them to their MTX, Season Passes and whatever bullshit they're into, and throw money at marketing to make them big*. It may work, but its mind-numbingly uninspiring to me.
*Excepting, sort of, Nintendo.
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 12, 2023 11:50:32 GMT
To everyone who's playing this now what are your feelings on some people in the game industry saying we shouldn't expect more out of the AAA space just because of this game's success? Depends on what the angle is. There's somewhat of a point in that this is a huge game with a huge budget made by a huge number of people and a studio that has an unusual amount of freedom. A lot of studios just couldn't do this. Obsidian is less than half the size of Larian and has never had this kind of freedom, to take one example. Players shouldn't have the expectation that every studio can or should even try to match it in size and scope, especially with the relatively high production values for an RPG.
If on the other hand it sets a higher expectation for involved stories, interactivity and player choices in RPGs then that is only a good thing and not something that should be complained about.
There's also the fact that they've released their games without any micro transactions or DLCs or other ways of nickle-and-diming their players which definitely should be the standard for all games.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 12, 2023 14:17:03 GMT
As far as general production values go (graphics, voice acting, size of world, etc), this would be a pretty unreasonable standard for most studios outside of the AAA space. But I hope it sets a standard and expectation for good writing, which is something that any studio can achieve if they prioritise it.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Aug 12, 2023 14:18:47 GMT
As long as they hire ex-RPS staff
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Aug 12, 2023 14:49:55 GMT
I mean Dragon Age often has good writing. But the last 2 the quest structures rarely deviated from "Go to X kill Y" or "Collect X of Z", it's the systems and player creativity that's completely missing.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 12, 2023 15:17:21 GMT
Well, quest design is a part of good writing. Give me things that are fulfilling and interesting, and aren't just collecting doodads for someone.
Dragon Age Inquisition was especially fucked in this regard. At the war table I'm sending my advisors off to do interesting stuff like covertly starting rebellions or stopping assassinations. And what do I, as the leader of the Inquisition, get to do? Gather 5 fucking deer skins to give to some random person at camp.
Like, seriously, what the fuck. I don't care if your game has a thousand quests if most of them are like this. I'll happily accept quality over quantity.
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sport✅
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Post by sport✅ on Aug 12, 2023 15:36:32 GMT
I just hope they all don't follow Larian's militant woke agenda.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 12, 2023 15:43:21 GMT
I just witnessed a bugbear buggering an ogre. Fucking hell the horniness of this game is going to take some getting used to.
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ekz
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Post by ekz on Aug 13, 2023 4:11:28 GMT
When you level up, do you get to assign points or is it automatically assigned? Because when I levelled up last night on my character (the pre-made rogue) I couldn't figure out what to do in the level up screen. I was on controller though so I'm thinking perhaps something was missed as the controller inputs/UI seems very unfinished. I ask because I was just reading a review and it mentioned dumping points into X stat, when I didn't seem to have that option.
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ekz
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Post by ekz on Aug 13, 2023 4:12:20 GMT
It was also about 1am and I'd delved pretty deep into my slab of beer at this point which may make more sense now that I think about it
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 13, 2023 4:22:46 GMT
As far as I know, "dumping points into x stat" just means using your feat selection to increase your ability points. There's a few of them that do that.
On that note, the only downside of this game so far for me, is that there's not quite enough to choose from when leveling up. I know that's D&D, and that you can always multiclass, but sometimes you level up and it feels like you don't get anything.
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ekz
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Post by ekz on Aug 13, 2023 4:56:37 GMT
Soz to be a pain mate. I just googled feat selection and from what I can tell that's levels 4, 8 and 12. Are these the only times I'll need to worry about point allocation? Apart from about 30 minutes in D:OS2 this is my first foray into anything like this, so I'm going in as dumb as dumb can be.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 13, 2023 5:11:18 GMT
Well yeah, you can get points from feats. Aside from that, I'm not certain where the "pump points into x ability" thing comes from.
Though I suppose there is a respec option from a guy that turns up at your camp, maybe that's what they mean. *shrug*
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Tomo
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Post by Tomo on Aug 13, 2023 8:12:14 GMT
How is the performance of this on Steam Deck?
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f00b_inc
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Post by f00b_inc on Aug 13, 2023 8:21:20 GMT
How is the performance of this on Steam Deck? It's okay... I don't have another way to play so I'm sticking with it. Battery is truly woeful but I get a solid 30fps and dropped the settings down a bit to try to get a bit more playtime. The controller support is actually fine for me (although I'm sure inventory management would be much easier with a mouse!)
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 13, 2023 8:31:09 GMT
Can I ask what settings you are using? I've put everything as low as it can go and I regularly see low 20s. It is mostly fine for this kind of game and I'll probably manage with it when I go on holiday next week and would like a little BG3 for the plane, but it isn't ideal.
Not tried putting the FSR on performance mode and perhaps that will be the key option. Also might be because I'm not using the Steam version. Edit - just tried with FSR Performance mode and seemed to help a lot for the brief few seconds I checked, but looks awful. Balanced isn't too bad, but isn't quite as consistent.
Hopefully we can get FSR2.0 in this soon.
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Tomo
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Post by Tomo on Aug 13, 2023 8:36:33 GMT
Good point re inventory management. Think that might be a killer for me. If I'm going to spend half my time in menus, it needs to be swift.
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f00b_inc
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Post by f00b_inc on Aug 13, 2023 8:50:59 GMT
Can I ask what settings you are using? I've put everything as low as it can go and I regularly see low 20s. It is mostly fine for this kind of game and I'll probably manage with it when I go on holiday next week and would like a little BG3 for the plane, but it isn't ideal. Not tried putting the FSR on performance mode and perhaps that will be the key option. Also might be because I'm not using the Steam version. Sure will double check when I get back on! I feel there must still be some improvements that can be made hopefully a patch will improve things further but should be able to get a steadyish 30 (with a few compromises..)
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 13, 2023 9:39:30 GMT
I'm finding inventory management a bit much even on PC, but it's somewhat my own fault for being a hoarder who picks up everything and has trouble selling anything that might come in useful while also being anal about keeping my inventory and stashes somewhat in order. At least I've resisted the urge to go on pickpocketing sprees and I'm not stealing much.
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kal
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Post by kal on Aug 13, 2023 9:57:06 GMT
I can’t quite decide to go PS5 or Steamdeck. I’ll get far more time to play it on the deck but so much less shiney.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Aug 13, 2023 15:54:42 GMT
Man the Underdark is scary. Maybe I should come back after I've done the goblin camp stuff.
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Frog
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Post by Frog on Aug 13, 2023 17:36:59 GMT
Yeah it's much more manageable at around level 5.
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on Aug 13, 2023 22:37:26 GMT
About the whole 'Every AAA game needs to have the same level of ambition and level of content as BG3' debate. I don't personally buy into it, not every game has to have it and nor is it prob fair to expect it. I've read accounts from devs that say they get imposter syndrome when something like Elden Ring or Nier Automata comes out, which is a straightforward game but with fantastic combat, story and insane production values to back it up. It sounds like the people making that argument are the same dull people that only buy AAA games. They say that modern games are all cash grabs but some of the best titles this year are single player games with no predatory practices and also fairly well polished. It's a false narrative.
The ambition and willingness to experiment is still there, you're just not gonna see it an any big franchise. BG3 an outlier in this regard in that it a couple of things going for it that people didn't know about. Larian had experience building out similar games in Divinity 1 and 2 which sounds like a lot of new BG3 fans hadn't played before. The game was in early access for years which would cut down on the amount of bugs on release and seemingly backed up by people passionate about the project and want to see it succeed from every level. Not every game can do that. The hope is it will inspire other devs to make CRPG's. More games is always a good thing. And maybe it'll make the big publishers put some time and effort to letting devs do the best they can and deliver a complete game that's polished on release without making some apology tweet that it'll get fixed eventually. Doubt it tho
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Post by skalpadda on Aug 14, 2023 1:33:34 GMT
I seem to have started off act 2 by really pissing off the queen of the space lizards. Every choice seemed like a very bad one and I'm kinda worried that I missed something obvious, but at least it should be interesting.
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Garfy
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Post by Garfy on Aug 14, 2023 9:29:56 GMT
Every choice seemed like a very bad one and I'm kinda worried that I missed something obvious, but at least it should be interesting. Thats where I am right now and it's such a cool bit. This game is awesome
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 14, 2023 10:31:28 GMT
About the whole 'Every AAA game needs to have the same level of ambition and level of content as BG3' debate. I don't personally buy into it, not every game has to have it and nor is it prob fair to expect it. I've read accounts from devs that say they get imposter syndrome when something like Elden Ring or Nier Automata comes out, which is a straightforward game but with fantastic combat, story and insane production values to back it up. It sounds like the people making that argument are the same dull people that only buy AAA games. They say that modern games are all cash grabs but some of the best titles this year are single player games with no predatory practices and also fairly well polished. It's a false narrative. The ambition and willingness to experiment is still there, you're just not gonna see it an any big franchise. BG3 an outlier in this regard in that it a couple of things going for it that people didn't know about. Larian had experience building out similar games in Divinity 1 and 2 which sounds like a lot of new BG3 fans hadn't played before. The game was in early access for years which would cut down on the amount of bugs on release and seemingly backed up by people passionate about the project and want to see it succeed from every level. Not every game can do that. The hope is it will inspire other devs to make CRPG's. More games is always a good thing. And maybe it'll make the big publishers put some time and effort to letting devs do the best they can and deliver a complete game that's polished on release without making some apology tweet that it'll get fixed eventually. Doubt it tho Agree with this. I guess I'd just add that from what I've read Larian were prepared to take big financial risks that AAA developers usually aren't. They could have fallen flat on their face by constraining their potential market through using a 20 year old license, making an un-apologetically complex game, paid early access but forgoing most of the now established revenue streams (day one DLC etc). They must have invested a hell of a lot and had the game flopped or had a Cyberpunk-esque launch it could have ended the studio. I detect some bitterness from big studio developers working under constraints that Larian didn't have to. It's all hugely commendable and I'm delighted they are being rewarded with sales, but I'm not sure if it's realistic to expect the rest of the big publicly listed studios to follow suit when they are steered by pleasing their investors who don't care about individual projects and will naturally be risk averse. It's a real pity but we are where we are. Hypothetically, if games like BG3 outsell equivalent more generic AAA third person open world RPG's with collecting, crafting and cosmetic DLC then there might be a gradual shift. More likely Microsoft, Sony or EA will conclude it's easier to just buy Larian and we know how that goes.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Aug 14, 2023 14:00:47 GMT
I'm sure it'd go down well if AAA publishers started down the early access route
Is it really that big of a deal? Starfield will come out, it will do very well, the industry will move on and things will go back to normal. BG3 is an anomaly
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