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Post by stuz359 on Mar 17, 2022 17:43:53 GMT
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Post by stuz359 on Mar 18, 2022 8:48:17 GMT
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Mar 18, 2022 9:11:36 GMT
It's a terrible hyperbole laden article. The cost of living crisis is real enough without confusing things like " This plays into the idea, beloved by mainstream economists, that the interests of workers and consumers are essentially a seesaw: for one to gain, the other must lose." Consumers are workers for a start. Then there's the fact that she talks about BP and Shell having huge profits and then bitches about supermarkets having the power to pass these costs onto the customer. Outside of energy production most businesses will feel the burden of inflation. She just washes over that with "this effectively means power to decide whether the poorest families can afford to eat. The problem is that the companies making these life-or-death decisions recognise no duty other than to maximise investors’ returns." That's the point of business and ignores the other end of the spectrum where businesses face extinction if they don't put up their prices. It's a lazy clickbait article.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Mar 18, 2022 9:18:27 GMT
Consumers are workers for a start. Well, yeah, but the point is that they arent treated as such. To benefit consumers, companies flog workers to death which is one of the reasons we are in this mess. Your company reduces your hours to protect the cost of THEIR widget, it affects their workers ability to buy other widgets. Its a shitty capitalist death spiral.
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Post by Leolian'sBro on Mar 18, 2022 9:28:14 GMT
The Guardian’s not wrong but that article is chock full of weasel words. If they’re happy just being a left-wing tabloid that’s fine, but they could dial back the histrionics and make the point much more powerfully.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Mar 18, 2022 11:12:18 GMT
The Guardian’s not wrong but that article is chock full of weasel words. If they’re happy just being a left-wing tabloid that’s fine, but they could dial back the histrionics and make the point much more powerfully. Yeah this is exactly what pissed me off about the article, might as well have been from the mirror.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Mar 18, 2022 11:16:17 GMT
Consumers are workers for a start. Well, yeah, but the point is that they arent treated as such. To benefit consumers, companies flog workers to death which is one of the reasons we are in this mess. Your company reduces your hours to protect the cost of THEIR widget, it affects their workers ability to buy other widgets. Its a shitty capitalist death spiral. You put that on an economy wide scale and you have a recession, cause no one can afford to buy any but the most essential widgets if even that. Economists know that as well, that's why inflation is bad. It's not some conspiracy that "mainstream economists" are in on.
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Post by TheSaint on Mar 18, 2022 11:36:32 GMT
The Guardian’s not wrong but that article is chock full of weasel words. If they’re happy just being a left-wing tabloid that’s fine, but they could dial back the histrionics and make the point much more powerfully. Yeah this is exactly what pissed me off about the article, might as well have been from the mirror. In fairness it's not actually a Guardian article just an opinion piece published on their website.
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technoish
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Post by technoish on Mar 18, 2022 11:39:37 GMT
Just read Monbiot, Hyde, Crace, Jenkins, and block out anything by Toynbee and Jones.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Mar 18, 2022 11:44:18 GMT
Yeah anything in "comment is free" isn't going through an editorial desk in the same way so it'll only have light touch editing for liable and stuff and not be attempting to match the Guardian style guides.
Though most the time Monbiot can also get in the sea for being a sanctimonious fuckwit. He's got a massive blind spot for other people not being middle class.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Mar 18, 2022 11:53:06 GMT
Christine Berry is normally pretty good. I haven't read the article, but she's a well-qualified and usually well-judged neo-left economics writer.
I can see why she might not appeal to "business is great! profits are king!" types and raging Tories, but her stuff is normally well-reasoned and largely practical.
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technoish
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Post by technoish on Mar 18, 2022 12:19:32 GMT
Yeah anything in "comment is free" isn't going through an editorial desk in the same way so it'll only have light touch editing for liable and stuff and not be attempting to match the Guardian style guides. Though most the time Monbiot can also get in the sea for being a sanctimonious fuckwit. He's got a massive blind spot for other people not being middle class. Define middle class!!!
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Mar 18, 2022 13:05:36 GMT
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Post by 😎 on Mar 18, 2022 13:07:48 GMT
The Guardian has long been basically Left Wing Fox News, going into Helen Lovejoy histrionics about pretty much everything. They might as well just add a new byline of “WE ARE ALL GOING TO SUFFER AND DIE”
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Post by Leolian'sBro on Mar 18, 2022 13:09:28 GMT
Isn’t the point of the Guardian article that it is not directly due to Russia? To be clear - I agree with the Guardian article, but it could have been delivered in a calmer tone.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Mar 18, 2022 13:13:30 GMT
The Guardian has long been basically Left Wing Fox News, going into Helen Lovejoy histrionics about pretty much everything. They might as well just add a new byline of “WE ARE ALL GOING TO SUFFER AND DIE” I don't really give a shit either way about the Guardian (or any other newspaper, frankly), but it's worth noting again that the piece concerned is in the Opinion section and is not part of an editorial stance. Somewhere between "fat cats are using the current situation to engage in merciless price gouging" and "small businesses are struggling to survive in the current conditions" (both of which are undoubtedly true) is probably a reasonable middle ground. Course, the reasons why the price of fuel, groceries etc are rising makes little difference to the family living on the poverty line.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Mar 18, 2022 13:22:13 GMT
makes little difference to the family living on the poverty line. It's no Conga
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Mar 18, 2022 13:22:40 GMT
That image is terrible. Tiny amount of chips AND mushy peas. FFS.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Mar 18, 2022 13:44:27 GMT
Fair, I probably mean upper middle class. It was some idiotic stance he took on students not choosing to do enriching lovely jobs or oh gosh deciding to do Computer Science so they could get a job afterwards; that fucked me off. Maybe people are doing that because 27K of debt to work in Sainsbury's with a poetry degree is a scary prospect to a lot of people. Probably less of a scary potential if your family are MPs and you went to public school (e.g. a private old boys one), as you know you'll get bailed out at some point. The Guardian has long been basically Left Wing Fox News, going into Helen Lovejoy histrionics about pretty much everything. They might as well just add a new byline of “WE ARE ALL GOING TO SUFFER AND DIE” I mean it definitely isn't. Their basic News section isn't fucking shite for one. The opinion pieces are opinion pieces, and clearly labelled as such. Nothing like Fox News where they don't even know the difference.
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Post by 😎 on Mar 18, 2022 13:56:37 GMT
I meant more that they basically stoke fear as a means to keep engagement, rather than actively mislabeling their stuff. Though they also have a shortcut to that in their “analysis” pieces that tend to be fairly awful clickbaity stuff where the title is a question that usually just has “no” as the answer.
Their Covid coverage for instance has been absolutely awful. Some of their reporting has been so divorced from reality I wondered if it had some sort of deal with The Onion.
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technoish
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Post by technoish on Mar 18, 2022 15:02:43 GMT
Fair, I probably mean upper middle class. It was some idiotic stance he took on students not choosing to do enriching lovely jobs or oh gosh deciding to do Computer Science so they could get a job afterwards; that fucked me off. Maybe people are doing that because 27K of debt to work in Sainsbury's with a poetry degree is a scary prospect to a lot of people. Probably less of a scary potential if your family are MPs and you went to public school (e.g. a private old boys one), as you know you'll get bailed out at some point. The Guardian has long been basically Left Wing Fox News, going into Helen Lovejoy histrionics about pretty much everything. They might as well just add a new byline of “WE ARE ALL GOING TO SUFFER AND DIE” I mean it definitely isn't. Their basic News section isn't fucking shite for one. The opinion pieces are opinion pieces, and clearly labelled as such. Nothing like Fox News where they don't even know the difference. I think my point tho is that those old notions of class aren't really very good buckets. Im not sure I read that one, but if he was saying that he didn't want the study of topics like poetry to be confined to top income percentiles, I think that is a pretty good point. I still don't really understand the student debt issue - it comes out as a graduate tax not debt.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Mar 18, 2022 15:07:16 GMT
I think my point tho is that those old notions of class aren't really very good buckets. Im not sure I read that one, but if he was saying that he didn't want the study of topics like poetry to be confined to top income percentiles, I think that is a pretty good point. I still don't really understand the student debt issue - it comes out as a graduate tax not debt. No he didn't mention money at all was my problem. It was very "why don't students pick to do the finer things", without mentioning money. When the obvious reason they get jobs at banks or do courses they think will get em money is because they don't come from money. This didn't seem to have occurred to him. It's just a case of check your privilege mate. Sort of like whenever they (journalists generally) have someone going on about people eating ready meals and not buying all nice organic food at the farmer's market to live healthily. Doesn't occur to them other people's life don't work that way.
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Post by Sarfrin on Mar 18, 2022 19:37:26 GMT
Fair, I probably mean upper middle class. It was some idiotic stance he took on students not choosing to do enriching lovely jobs or oh gosh deciding to do Computer Science so they could get a job afterwards; that fucked me off. Maybe people are doing that because 27K of debt to work in Sainsbury's with a poetry degree is a scary prospect to a lot of people. Probably less of a scary potential if your family are MPs and you went to public school (e.g. a private old boys one), as you know you'll get bailed out at some point. I mean it definitely isn't. Their basic News section isn't fucking shite for one. The opinion pieces are opinion pieces, and clearly labelled as such. Nothing like Fox News where they don't even know the difference. I think my point tho is that those old notions of class aren't really very good buckets. Im not sure I read that one, but if he was saying that he didn't want the study of topics like poetry to be confined to top income percentiles, I think that is a pretty good point. I still don't really understand the student debt issue - it comes out as a graduate tax not debt. You still get a lovely statement telling you you owe 30 grand or more every year. And the amount probably keeps going up every year unless you get a very well paid job. My 9 grand debt from one year of post graduate teaching qualification was still more than 9 grand three years after I qualified and had been working continuously.
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Post by stuz359 on Mar 18, 2022 20:47:09 GMT
With student debt you just have to think of it as a graduate tax. The vast majority will never pay it back and it doesn't seem worth it for people to try to clear the debt. Anything anyone overpays on student debt seems to be wasted money.
As for the article I posted earlier, on reflection it may seem hyperbolic in places, but the sentiment is right, especially as it focuses on certain sectors rather than business as a whole.
It mentions specifically, property investment which I think we can all agree that property prices and rents are out of control, outstripping many peoples ability to actually pay for a home or being trapped in the rentier economy.
It mentions the petrochemical companies, which seem to have just applied a percentage calculation to profit on rising oil and gas prices. So they are raking it in. Not only passing on costs to consumers, but also increasing their profit margin as a percentage. The CEO of BP (or was it Shell?) boasting that their company was basically a cash printing machine is particularly callous considering bill rises for people.
The article was certainly not a 'fuck business' article, rather targeting a certain type of business that seems content with making ever more profit out a crisis.
The simple fact is, to help with the situation, the treasury could cap their tax take on certain products (petrol for example, the treasury could say we are taking this percentage of tax or an upper limit, at the moment, the treasury are raking it in thanks to increasing prices).
Companies as well, at least those providing vital services, such as water, energy etc, could limit the profits they make. Rather than passing on the rises to consumers, limit their profits to a certain level, rather than taking the same profit margin percentage. Just as a recognition that eventually, this is going to hit the entire economy hard and send into recession.
Anyway, there are certainly no simple solutions and I doubt a three word slogan assault is going to solve it.
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Post by Sarfrin on Mar 18, 2022 22:27:05 GMT
The simple solution is for the government to reign in the capitalists that will happily, and ignorantly, fuck the entire economy to turn a slightly larger profit in the short term. It's even against their own best interests but corporations are dumber than the sum of their parts. Of course there's no chance of that happening with a bunch of absolute fucking idiots in the wheelhouse of this country at the moment.
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Post by stuz359 on Mar 18, 2022 23:14:39 GMT
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Post by Sarfrin on Mar 18, 2022 23:20:02 GMT
Our descendants are fucked. Even the descendants of the fucking idiots who engineered that situation somehow thinking they could escape consequences that affect the entire world.
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Post by dfunked on Mar 21, 2022 9:41:04 GMT
Just had a look at available energy tariffs to see if it's worth a last-minute switch.
40 fucking pence for a unit of electricity?! I thought the 25p that I got in Jan was bad, but this is going to get seriously ugly!
We haven't even had the April cap increase yet.
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Post by Chopsen on Mar 21, 2022 10:30:55 GMT
The vast majority will never pay it back
This gets said a lot about the student loans, but it completely misses the point about how it contributes to generational inequality.
When the debt gets "forgiven" it doesn't vanish in to ether. The government takes on the liability of whatever is left, and has to count it as part of the their debt. The servicing of *that* debt falls to generation taxation: i.e. the tax payers at the time. This is include all those people who were of the generation that had the current student loan system put upon them.
It's now a cliche, but it's true: this is all about shielding a generation from paying taxes. The current tory voter base (i.e. those > 50 years old and especially pensioners) will never have to take on this burden to pay for higher education.
I'm too old to have been caught in the student loan system, but it's a fucking con.
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Post by Dougs on Mar 21, 2022 11:30:59 GMT
Just had a look at available energy tariffs to see if it's worth a last-minute switch. 40 fucking pence for a unit of electricity?! I thought the 25p that I got in Jan was bad, but this is going to get seriously ugly! We haven't even had the April cap increase yet. I think they are all pricing in the October rise. It's going to utterly fuck a lot of people
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