Frog
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Post by Frog on May 17, 2024 11:49:59 GMT
I quite enjoy AC games and I am looking forward to getting stuck into a new one. Mirage was the weakest in recent years for me due to the characters but I still had a decent time with it.
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Post by JuniorFE on May 17, 2024 11:51:20 GMT
The points you raise have absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. They're either marketing or narrative fiction reasons. As you point out, the gameplay remains the same regardless of the choices. Not mentioning anything other than gameplay may have been a bit of a misstep on my part I'll admit, but some of their liberties do affect gameplay as well, sometimes, as in "the gameplay would have been different if they hadn't taken these liberties". Liberating forts in AC3 during sequences set years before the Revolutionary War actually began, the naval combat in Black Flag (especially naval rams), conflicts in Odyssey never showcasing any formations that the armies at the time were famous for, outside of one phalanx in the opening cutscene that the Spartans then abandon, something they never did (and the whole mess with what Kassandra shouldn't have been able to do while Alexios could, which would extend to gameplay as well, but I've mentioned that), the more minor stuff like tombs and ruins we haven't found even in modern times or (although that last one is a product of the fictional story) famous buildings and areas suddenly having Assassin's Tombs and other such dungeons hidden within... It's hardly just for marketing or narrative reasons when these are things that you the player are asked to do (or don't have to do when you should have had, in some cases) |
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lukasz
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Post by lukasz on May 17, 2024 11:54:30 GMT
Would you enjoy a remake of Shogun as Assasin Creed with Adams instead jumping on roofs and slaughtering locals left and right with legendary katana stolen from a grave? Yes, just like I and many others did when the game was an action RPG called Nioh. I don't remember seeing nearly as much outrage about the other foreigner protagonist back then, either... Do not know anything about Nioh. in regard to "AC: Shogun" it would be the same issue. A foreigner coming and slaughtering hundreds if not thousands locals for one reason and another, destroying status quo of local society because they cant do stuff themselves. This is a trope which I frankly despise if done poorly. and AC games are not some great pieces of writing. You still jump on roofs and slaughter people en mass in cool ways. It is not issue about marginalized group or anything about that. Ratonhnhaké:ton is local. it is his land and his culture he is fighting for. if he was in India during British conquest it would be the same issue. she is greek right? so really not the same thing. it is not the issue of minority but of foreigners in societies which never had them. AC has always taken liberties with its "historical accuracy" for the sake of gameplay, it's only just now that it's become such a major problem? I wonder why /s and they are frigging idiots and their opinion means shit to me. did i defend them for god's sake? Did I brought any mention of them in this thread? I just said that i saw japanese posts in xitter whining about the game not featuring japanese person as MC and instead of foreigner. they might be fake of course. but as mentioned I dislike this tropes very much unless its done very well (like Shogun. one of my favourite books) Dont think AC can do it based on their other things they did but I can be completely wrong of course as I have very limited knowledge of AC. |
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on May 17, 2024 12:13:19 GMT
Yes, just like I and many others did when the game was an action RPG called Nioh. I don't remember seeing nearly as much outrage about the other foreigner protagonist back then, either... Do not know anything about Nioh. in regard to "AC: Shogun" it would be the same issue. A foreigner coming and slaughtering hundreds if not thousands locals for one reason and another, destroying status quo of local society because they cant do stuff themselves. This is a trope which I frankly despise if done poorly. and AC games are not some great pieces of writing. You still jump on roofs and slaughter people en mass in cool ways. Every single AC game punishes you for killing civilians. Only armed guards are fair game. This idea you seem to project that players can play as Yasuke and ream through the Japanese countryside slaughtering locals isn't the case. And if you have a problem with the current implementation of that still, then take it up with Eivor doing it in England, Edward in the Caribbean and Ezio in Constantinople. |
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Post by JuniorFE on May 17, 2024 12:16:08 GMT
So just to make sure I understand, you're arguing about a franchise that by your own admission you have very limited knowledge of (or none, in the case of Nioh, which has a very similar historical basis to the hypothetical AC Shogun you're decrying), and your argument is that this time it's different because it's a transplanted marginalized group instead of a native marginalized group?
When, if anything, Yasuke would probably have more of an excuse to be able to operate closer to equally with natives in Japan, having been made a retainer of Nobunaga himself (even if he never became a samurai, that alone is a position many would have killed for), while Connor (random Native American) or Kassandra (exiled from her city-state, female and a mercenary, Alexios is only different in one of those and that still would have been enough to give him much more social freedom in that time period) have no such assistance?
This doesn't even matter all that much, I've said my piece and it's clear you disagree, I just wanna make sure we're on the same page because honestly the distinction you're trying to make feels rather hollow to me when, at the end of the day, Connor, Kass and now Yasuke were all part of marginalized groups in their games' settings, regardless of their place of birth...
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lukasz
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Post by lukasz on May 17, 2024 13:06:21 GMT
So just to make sure I understand, you're arguing about a franchise that by your own admission you have very limited knowledge of (or none, in the case of Nioh, which has a very similar historical basis to the hypothetical AC Shogun you're decrying), and your argument is that this time it's different because it's a transplanted marginalized group instead of a native marginalized group? When, if anything, Yasuke would probably have more of an excuse to be able to operate closer to equally with natives in Japan, having been made a retainer of Nobunaga himself (even if he never became a samurai, that alone is a position many would have killed for), while Connor (random Native American) or Kassandra (exiled from her city-state, female and a mercenary, Alexios is only different in one of those and that still would have been enough to give him much more social freedom in that time period) have no such assistance? This doesn't even matter all that much, I've said my piece and it's clear you disagree, I just wanna make sure we're on the same page because honestly the distinction you're trying to make feels rather hollow to me when, at the end of the day, Connor, Kass and now Yasuke were all part of marginalized groups in their' games settings, regardless of their place of birth... Again. It has nothing to with a character being from marginalized groups. That part of the character has no impact on my opinion. but seems you just ignore the single thing I had been repeating it ad nauseam and instead you are trying to paint me as caring about the guys skin colour. nevermind. |
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 17, 2024 13:22:16 GMT
Do not know anything about Nioh. in regard to "AC: Shogun" it would be the same issue. A foreigner coming and slaughtering hundreds if not thousands locals for one reason and another, destroying status quo of local society because they cant do stuff themselves. This is a trope which I frankly despise if done poorly. and AC games are not some great pieces of writing. You still jump on roofs and slaughter people en mass in cool ways. Every single AC game punishes you for killing civilians. Only armed guards are fair game. This idea you seem to project that players can play as Yasuke and ream through the Japanese countryside slaughtering locals isn't the case. And if you have a problem with the current implementation of that still, then take it up with Eivor doing it in England, Edward in the Caribbean and Ezio in Constantinople. #digitallocallivesmatter |
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wunty
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Post by wunty on May 17, 2024 13:29:34 GMT
AC games have always shoehorned in real historical figures and unless I'm mistaken, the blurb when you load all previous games up (and presumably this one too) stresses that the game is a work of fiction. Personally I don't see anything to get into any knots about here. It's made up. I don't think anyone is saying these people actually did the shit that they are painted out to be doing in the AC games.
(I don't actually know what the fuck you're all arguing about, I just wanted to come in and say I'm looking forward to this one quite a lot and thought I may as well join in in some capacity)
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Frog
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Post by Frog on May 17, 2024 13:31:00 GMT
That's it, I'm voting for Wunty at the next general election
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wunty
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Post by wunty on May 17, 2024 13:33:01 GMT
Ooooh I wouldn't. You should see some of my other policies.
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Post by Whizzo on May 17, 2024 13:39:42 GMT
I'm sure the representation of Leonardo da Vinci during Assassin's Creed 2 was completely accurate.
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Post by JuniorFE on May 17, 2024 13:42:37 GMT
So just to make sure I understand, you're arguing about a franchise that by your own admission you have very limited knowledge of (or none, in the case of Nioh, which has a very similar historical basis to the hypothetical AC Shogun you're decrying), and your argument is that this time it's different because it's a transplanted marginalized group instead of a native marginalized group? When, if anything, Yasuke would probably have more of an excuse to be able to operate closer to equally with natives in Japan, having been made a retainer of Nobunaga himself (even if he never became a samurai, that alone is a position many would have killed for), while Connor (random Native American) or Kassandra (exiled from her city-state, female and a mercenary, Alexios is only different in one of those and that still would have been enough to give him much more social freedom in that time period) have no such assistance? This doesn't even matter all that much, I've said my piece and it's clear you disagree, I just wanna make sure we're on the same page because honestly the distinction you're trying to make feels rather hollow to me when, at the end of the day, Connor, Kass and now Yasuke were all part of marginalized groups in their' games settings, regardless of their place of birth... Again. It has nothing to with a character being from marginalized groups. That part of the character has no impact on my opinion. but seems you just ignore the single thing I had been repeating it ad nauseam and instead you are trying to paint me as caring about the guys skin colour. nevermind. Er... You do realise that when I say "marginalized group" in Yasuke's case, I'm talking about him being a foreigner rather than native Japanese, right? Like William Adams in Nioh/Shogun? You know, your argument, which I am not ignoring, and nothing about skin colour??? One last time, AC has used marginalized groups and non-natives as playable and important characters multiple times in the series. Among others I may be forgetting, a Native American in colonial, 18th century America, a woman in Ancient Greece, a Norse in Britain/Ireland/Paris (and America at one point) and now a foreigner in Sengoku era Japan. When I brought up idiots crying foul about Yasuke's race it was not at all my intention to make it seem like you were defending them or agreeing with them, and I am sorry if I made it seem that way. However, your argument about people wanting native Japanese protagonists, rather than a foreigner, which, again, I immediately said was a legitimate complaint, in the only part of my post that you did not quote, btw: simply has the issue that a) it's about a series where it's been done before, multiple times, both with native marginalized groups and foreigners, to much less outcry and b) there is even a native Japanese protagonist, Naoe, alongside Yasuke in the same damn game! In any case, I'm content to leave this to an "agree to disagree" at this point. Apologies to everyone else for clogging up the thread and let's hope the game is good. |
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 17, 2024 13:43:18 GMT
AC games have always shoehorned in real historical figures and unless I'm mistaken, the blurb when you load all previous games up (and presumably this one too) stresses that the game is a work of fiction. Personally I don't see anything to get into any knots about here. It's made up. I don't think anyone is saying these people actually did the shit that they are painted out to be doing in the AC games. (I don't actually know what the fuck you're all arguing about, I just wanted to come in and say I'm looking forward to this one quite a lot and thought I may as well join in in some capacity) I think the majority of the people speaking here aren't in any knots here about the situation to be fair. |
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Post by dangerousdave on May 17, 2024 13:50:23 GMT
I’m genuinely gutted the two protagonists aren’t modelled on Michael J Fox and Christopher Lloyd.
In fact, they should have been the two main characters in every Assassin’s Creed game.
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Post by drhickman1983 on May 17, 2024 13:53:47 GMT
I just want to stab people and crabs with historically inaccurate katanas.
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on May 17, 2024 13:56:21 GMT
But only the ones with shaky animation.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on May 17, 2024 16:31:23 GMT
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on May 17, 2024 16:35:19 GMT
I think the narrative people are pushing is somewhat working when people are only talking about Yasuke and not the fact there's another female Japanese protaganist too. She has a kusarigama, she's gonna be the best character.
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Post by FlexibleFeline on May 17, 2024 16:39:02 GMT
I’m genuinely gutted the two protagonists aren’t modelled on Michael J Fox and Christopher Lloyd. In fact, they should have been the two main characters in every Assassin’s Creed game. I understand from my sources that the original main male protagonist was modelled on Eric Stolz but this was abandoned after several weeks for reasons. |
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 17, 2024 16:39:28 GMT
I’m genuinely gutted the two protagonists aren’t modelled on Michael J Fox and Christopher Lloyd. In fact, they should have been the two main characters in every Assassin’s Creed game. I understand from my sources that the original main male protagonist was modelled on Eric Stolz but this was abandoned after several weeks for reasons. Nice. |
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Post by FlexibleFeline on May 17, 2024 16:41:26 GMT
Here all week etc.
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Post by LegendaryApe on May 17, 2024 16:46:32 GMT
All I care about is whether or not I can pet animals, throw hammers at squirrels, and there is maximum gear customisation.
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on May 17, 2024 16:48:24 GMT
It would open so many interesting possibilities, both story-wise and from a gameplay perspective, if Naoe was a geisha instead of a shinobi...
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 17, 2024 16:50:18 GMT
He's not wrong in the wider spectrum. There aren't many Asian leads (I guess Asian here is a different term from we Brits use) that aren't ninja/samurai in videogames. It's an interesting discussion to have. |
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 17, 2024 16:50:41 GMT
Anyway is Mirage worth it?
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Post by Reviewer on May 17, 2024 16:53:43 GMT
Having read the last two pages I still don’t get the issue. Is it Asian representation in games? Is it because the main character isn’t Japanese, even though he’s based on a real person? Is it because some people like to be outraged on behalf of people who aren’t because it makes themselves feel better?
Is it because he’s back?
Who knows.
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Post by Reviewer on May 17, 2024 16:54:13 GMT
He's not wrong in the wider spectrum. There aren't many Asian leads (I guess Asian here is a different term from we Brits use) that aren't ninja/samurai in videogames. It's an interesting discussion to have. There are quite a lot, just not made by western companies. |
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Post by JuniorFE on May 17, 2024 17:01:50 GMT
It would open so many interesting possibilities, both story-wise and from a gameplay perspective, if Naoe was a geisha instead of a shinobi... Considering female geisha as we know them only appeared a couple centuries after the period the game is set in, and courtesans in general didn't have much freedom before that point either except for maybe the most famous ones, that would probably raise even more eyebrows about historical accuracy than anything about Yasuke... Also, while Naoe is not a historical figure, unlike Yasuke, her father is the Iga ninja Fujibayashi Nagato, who did exist, so his daughter ending up a courtesan would certainly be... a choice  |
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Post by JuniorFE on May 17, 2024 18:37:16 GMT
/Looks at Japanese developer make a series of games about US politics its imperialism and its nuclear policy, also 1960s Soviet politics as well as their invasion into Afghanistan, African child soldiers who are led by a white kid and the blood diamond trade. You know that thing where you come up with a great line for a conversation long after it has ended? This is me with this one right now. "Making the mother of all omelettes here, Jack! Can't fret over every egg!" (I really hope you were actually talking about MGS, otherwise the eggs will be too busy being on my face to go into the omelette ) |
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 17, 2024 18:37:54 GMT
Having read the last two pages I still don’t get the issue. Is it Asian representation in games? Is it because the main character isn’t Japanese, even though he’s based on a real person? Is it because some people like to be outraged on behalf of people who aren’t because it makes themselves feel better? Is it because he’s back? Who knows. It's because he's black. I don't think I've seen so many people become Yasuke experts while at the same time so concerned about Asian representation. |
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