Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 15, 2023 14:02:51 GMT
I do kind of get it if you're 'protecting your vision' and want people to play it *exactly* as you intended but, y'know, its a video game so get over yourself.
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Frog
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 14:05:14 GMT
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 14:05:14 GMT
I can understand it more from a developer point of view, but from a gamers point of view it's just weird.
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 14:17:52 GMT
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Sept 15, 2023 14:17:52 GMT
I’ve never had a £10 film or book force me to repeatedly smash my face against a wall before letting me move onto the next chapter. It’s not much to ask for a few artistic concessions to be made to let me finish my 70 quid game.
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Sept 15, 2023 14:32:31 GMT
Like I said a couple of pages back
Why must all games be for all people?
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Sept 15, 2023 14:45:37 GMT
There’s absolutely no reason for them not to be though.
Have your base difficulty / “original vision” for those that like it and then give some options for others. Literally the only impact it would have would be letting even more people enjoy it. I just don’t see any reason not to.
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 15:17:54 GMT
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 15:17:54 GMT
From a developer's standpoint the "reason not to" can literally just be "a game with an easy mode is not the game we want to make" tbh.
From a gamer's standpoint though, I dunno. "Not all games have to be for everyone" only holds up to a point for me. It's one thing for someone that demonstrably doesn't like, say, sports games to want the new FIFA to cater to them as well, that's kind of stupid, but if someone likes ARPGs as in our case I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to ask for an ARPG to give options for an easier time (although it's also not the developer's obligation to then provide said options if they don't want to, I suppose).
What I don't know, as I've mentioned, is whether FromSoft should stick with the "softer" version of the easy mode, that being in-game mechanics, as they have until now, or just add a toggle. My stance is that in Elden Ring especially the former is enough, but I'm not gonna get mad if they add the latter or anything, that's just gatekeeping for no reason...
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Derblington
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Post by Derblington on Sept 15, 2023 15:20:47 GMT
It's like arguing that there shouldn't subtitles or colourblind settings because you don't need/want them. Why do they bother translating titles? Learn a language if you want to really experience the director's vision.
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 15:34:14 GMT
From a developer's standpoint the "reason not to" can literally just be "a game with an easy mode is not the game we want to make" tbh... Indeed. And all the leet stuff being lobbed about. Nobody here who feels the FromSoft approach to difficulty has even approached defending that with a git gud angle. Not every game has to be for every gamer.
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Youthist
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Post by Youthist on Sept 15, 2023 15:50:25 GMT
It's like arguing that there shouldn't subtitles or colourblind settings because you don't need/want them. Why do they bother translating titles? Learn a language if you want to really experience the director's vision. It really isn’t like this.
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Sept 15, 2023 16:13:43 GMT
It's like arguing that there shouldn't subtitles or colourblind settings because you don't need/want them. Why do they bother translating titles? Learn a language if you want to really experience the director's vision. It really isn’t like this. Yeah, it's not, accessibility options do not equal difficulty options.
Games, unlike movies or books, are interactive, your entertainment depends on your personal involvement.
For example, I have short tolerance levels for games with huge skill trees and skill points earned/assigned by the player ( JuniorFE can attest this), they confuse me. But I don't expect every game to cater for my simpleton mind or to make these choices for me; if I find it overwhelming I either put up or avoid it. Similarly, walking simulations usually bore me to tears; I don't expect every game to have a fighting aspect, I understand that people enjoy the minimal interaction provided...
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 16:25:10 GMT
Some games do include auto level options though because they can and then people who struggle with that aspect can enjoy everything else
It's petty to say you can't play our game if you're not going to play it properly
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Derblington
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Post by Derblington on Sept 15, 2023 16:40:08 GMT
A difficulty option *is* an accessibility option. It’s allowing more people to cater the experience to their level of skill.
Everything else you’re talking about is changing the design of a game to cater to taste, which difficulty does not do. No one is arguing for Dark Souls to cater to farm builder fans, or walking sims to cater to fighting game fans.. It’s about allowing more ARPG fans, of different skill levels, to participate. And again, difficulty, like subtitles, are opt-in. You do not need to use them if you do not need/want to.
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Sept 15, 2023 16:40:31 GMT
Some games do include auto level options though because they can and then people who struggle with that aspect can enjoy everything else It's petty to say you can't play our game if you're not going to play it properly Good for them, however, I'm not saying anything like that, I'm just saying I don't expect every game to cater for my needs or wants...
EDIT: In any case, I feel we are arguing in circles. Personally, I won't belittle any Soulslike game that includes difficulty options (even if it's from From themselves) and I won't criticize any other that doesn't; it's up to the developer to include them or not and to the customer to vote with their wallet...
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 16:44:13 GMT
You can expect it though. Why shouldn't you? It's a shame to not be able to play something you'd otherwise want to because of a single aspect that's easily addressed
Also people are saying it's not about getting good or any of that, it's about the experience, etc but again, who decided the experience is using guides and wikis? Why is that not robbing yourself of the experience of overcoming the game's challenges through playing and learning it yourself? Did the NPCs use wikis?
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 16:55:59 GMT
Did people not start sharing strategies and information online because Demon's and Dark Souls were obtuse and they were having difficulty so they wanted to make it easier to get through it?
Why is an easy mode so abhorrent? People already heavily lean on aids to play the games as it is
I just don't understand how people can be talking as if they just take the game as it comes
It's OK to make the game easier your way, even part of the experience, but to lower some numbers is destroying The Vision
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 16:56:52 GMT
Did you get out of the endlessly argumentative side of the bed this morning AA?
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addyb
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Sept 15, 2023 17:03:59 GMT
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Post by addyb on Sept 15, 2023 17:03:59 GMT
Argument has been going for nearly 24 hours. I love the dedication.
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kal
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Post by kal on Sept 15, 2023 17:05:05 GMT
FWIW I think is one of the most interesting discussions we’ve had on here in absolutely ages. And it’s actually about gaming. We should do this more.
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Post by Trowel 🏴 on Sept 15, 2023 17:15:50 GMT
Worth dropping in this reply from the EG reviewer (who describes herself as a Soulslike fan):
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 17:42:42 GMT
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 17:42:42 GMT
It looks fab, but sounds like it lacks a touch of finesse 😙
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neems
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Post by neems on Sept 15, 2023 17:50:18 GMT
Did people not start sharing strategies and information online because Demon's and Dark Souls were obtuse and they were having difficulty so they wanted to make it easier to get through it? I was just about to post this as a counter to your argument actually. I appreciate that things have changed and From are huge now (and Elden Ring is absolutely easier than the earlier games) but I don't think Demon's and Dark Souls would have been such hits if they had been easier. At the beginning of the souls journey it was all about overcoming this enormous challenge, people asking for and giving advice online. All of that type of stuff added to the word of mouth and the reputation of the game. The 'git-gud' stuff came later, and to be honest I've never come across it much anyway. For me they've always been games that are about finding ways to beat the odds more than skill . I think, rightly or wrongly, that Miyazaki is reluctant to stray too far from the formula that has made From one of the biggest developers in the world.
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Frog
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Sept 15, 2023 18:09:32 GMT
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 18:09:32 GMT
Critically one of the biggest but other than Elden ring not even close in sales numbers.
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 18:14:14 GMT
So?
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Frog
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Sept 15, 2023 18:18:10 GMT
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 18:18:10 GMT
I think it's quite clear what I was saying if you can't work that out, that's a you issue.
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 18:19:08 GMT
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 18:19:08 GMT
It’s at the handbag stage now, awesome.
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Frog
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Sept 15, 2023 18:24:21 GMT
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 18:24:21 GMT
You were the one that replied with a snarky one word post but sure it's me with the handbags.
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 18:40:35 GMT
Yes, I could have, possibly should have said “why is that relevant?” (a valid question, by the way), but the “so” meant the same thing. You know that. If you actually meant to have a discussion then you could have properly responded and done so.
The Souls formula has *enormously* grown the reputation, reach, standing and influence of From Software. Their ideas have leeched fucking everywhere in the past 25 years since Demon’s Souls was released. I’d take one of their games versus any number of Ubisoft by-the-numbers dross any day, regardless of what the two sides have grossed. That’s an awful metric with which to measure worth.
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Frog
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Sept 15, 2023 18:46:27 GMT
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 18:46:27 GMT
Because by adding something as simple as a difficulty option they could grow their playerbase massively and more people would be able to enjoy their excellent games. They might be getting 50 or 60 million people who love playing their game and it would not affect your enjoyability of the game in any way at all. Why would anyone be more bothered about someone else getting to enjoy something?
Fwiw I have completed all of their souls games apart from sekiro as I didn't love it. However I would be very happy for more people to feel like they could play them.
I haven't seen a decent arguement for not having a difficulty option yet, do you have one?
I have however spoken to a lot of people who avoid them as they are too hard.
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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 18:49:40 GMT
Round and round we go.
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Frog
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Sept 15, 2023 18:51:43 GMT
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 18:51:43 GMT
So did you have a good reason why they shouldn't be added, if you posted one before I missed it as I have been at work most the day and havent followed the thread in its entirety.
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