JonFE
Junior Member
Uncomfortably numb...
Posts: 1,927
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Post by JonFE on Sept 15, 2023 10:15:47 GMT
The "won't be available from the start" thing is a potential issue, no doubt (although technically in Elden Ring at least, if you know where to go there's very few places you can't access with some trial and error)... The obfuscating bit kind of strengthens the integration into the game's overall feel though, IMO, thanks to adding to its sense of community. Remember the OG Dark Souls days (as detailed in the rather excellent Prepare to Die book) when nobody knew anything and the community was collectively figuring things out, sharing discoveries and strategies and commiserating over basilisk curses? Having your easy mode be something to discover (and part of it being player summons) adds to that sense of community and camaraderie in a way that a toggle, for obvious reasons, cannot (and that goes for any game that can handle its difficulty "settings" in this way, of course). That's the thing though, not everyone wants that exact same experience. I don't enjoy the community stuff. I think it ruins the expierence as I want to discover everything on my own
In any other game, 'sharing strategies', 'Wiki diving', etc would be considered cheating. It is cheating in my opinion and you're ruining it for yourself. I don't really see the point in playing it like that. Certainly not getting uppity about people wanting the game to be easier
Souls fans have just arbitrarily decided what is allowed and what isn't for the 'real experience'. Anything From put into the game to make it much easier is fine and part of the intended experience but an actual easy mode? Nah, go home, casuals. As much as people keep saying it's about From's Vision, it really just comes across as people being terrified of having their hardcore game taken away from them
In this age of constant handholding and games that practically play themselves, can you really blame them, though?
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Post by rhaegyr on Sept 15, 2023 10:18:12 GMT
Sharing strategies and information is cheating - what? That's all we did on the playground in the pre-internet days!
Demon's Souls and Fez had the above in spades and were two of the best experiences I've had in gaming.
Not all FROM fans are gatekeepers - I've platinumed Sekiro and would welcome an easy mode so other people could experience the parts they like.
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Sept 15, 2023 10:21:26 GMT
This might be a false memory but I swear I played a game once that only unlocked easy mode if you were totally shit at it. Ninja Gaiden asked you if you wanted to be go ninja dog level if you sucked too much. I dont know if that unlocked it, though. It was unlocked through dying too much. And Ryu had a pink ribbon on him if you played that mode, which really just shows how fucking dumb Itagaki could be.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 10:21:50 GMT
But that's why an Easy difficulty mode is a good option. They can leave the Normal game completely intact and everyone is happy
Also From don't actually include wikis or community discussion pages in their games, yet that is part of the intended experience for some reason and totally OK to do without undermining the challenge in any way
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Post by Vandelay on Sept 15, 2023 10:23:32 GMT
Edit - in response to Aunt's response about people with physical disabilities.
That's why games should have support for different control types. There is now quite a range of controllers that can be used for those with physical disabilities, from ones that are just very customisable or even ones that can be mouth operated. Fully editable controls should also be available, if people find the default settings uncomfortable.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 10:24:29 GMT
Sharing strategies and information is cheating - what? That's all we did on the playground in the pre-internet days! Demon's Souls and Fez had the above in spades and were two of the best experiences I've had in gaming. Not all FROM fans are gatekeepers - I've platinumed Sekiro and would welcome an easy mode so other people could experience the parts they like. The playground was hardly the collective knowledge of thousands of players organised into an encyclopedia though
Looking at guides or walkthroughs is cheating. Having someone tell you what stats to use, weapons, how to beat bosses, etc is cheating
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Sept 15, 2023 10:24:36 GMT
Not all FROM fans are gatekeepers - I've platinumed Sekiro and would welcome an easy mode so other people could experience the parts they like. This is why I don't agree the arguments against, even when well-argued by perfectly reasonable gamers, as in this thread. I want all games to be as accessible to as many as possible. Experience the brilliance of this game, and turn it down if it's too tough, as there are - in Souls games - a lot of things to enjoy beyond raw challenge.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 10:26:29 GMT
Edit - in response to Aunt's response about people with physical disabilities. That's why games should have support for different control types. There is now quite a range of controllers that can be used for those with physical disabilities, from ones that are just very customisable or even ones that can be mouth operated. Fully editable controls should also be available, if people find the default settings uncomfortable. What about slow reflexes?
People are really jumping through hoops to do anything to avoid just adding an Easy mode. Anything but Easy mode!
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Post by rhaegyr on Sept 15, 2023 10:27:44 GMT
What if the 'Easy Mode' is still too difficult for some people?
I think some sort of sliders would be the best way to go with a 'god mode' option too. All at the start obviously.
Edit - I remember reading some article/study about people not willing to select 'Easy Mode' too as they feel they're not playing the game properly or don't want to be seen as rubbish players. I'll try and dig it out, it was quite interesting.
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Sept 15, 2023 10:31:17 GMT
Someone mentioned sliders earlier and it does seem like a good solution. The first thing I'd do is set the parry window to maximum
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 10:31:38 GMT
Some games already have Story mode where you can't lose. I think SOMA has one. You can argue it takes all the tension away from the game if you can't die but you can still enjoy the story and everything else
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Post by rhaegyr on Sept 15, 2023 10:34:05 GMT
Sounds like we're on the same page, just quibbling over semantics!
I'm against an 'Easy Mode' as it's still a difficulty tier and some people may feel excluded still as difficulty is all relative.
Whereas with sliders people can tweak the game to their own playstyle and failing that, stick 'God Mode' on if they just want to experience the story.
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 10:35:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 10:35:06 GMT
The "won't be available from the start" thing is a potential issue, no doubt (although technically in Elden Ring at least, if you know where to go there's very few places you can't access with some trial and error)... The obfuscating bit kind of strengthens the integration into the game's overall feel though, IMO, thanks to adding to its sense of community. Remember the OG Dark Souls days (as detailed in the rather excellent Prepare to Die book) when nobody knew anything and the community was collectively figuring things out, sharing discoveries and strategies and commiserating over basilisk curses? Having your easy mode be something to discover (and part of it being player summons) adds to that sense of community and camaraderie in a way that a toggle, for obvious reasons, cannot (and that goes for any game that can handle its difficulty "settings" in this way, of course). That's the thing though, not everyone wants that exact same experience. I don't enjoy the community stuff. I think it ruins the expierence as I want to discover everything on my own
In any other game, 'sharing strategies', 'Wiki diving', etc would be considered cheating. It is cheating in my opinion and you're ruining it for yourself. I don't really see the point in playing it like that. Certainly not getting uppity about people wanting the game to be easier And I'm not going to get uppity about you not wanting to engage with the community aspect, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there and other people like it. Much as you or I not getting uppity about the possibility of an easy mode doesn't change the fact that, if it were there as a toggle, other people (for various reasons) would dislike it... Besides, are we really going to argue that "Wiki diving" or "Sharing strategies" is something that's only acceptable in From games' fanbases? Every single game ever made has a subset of fans (usually a minority) that decry that in favour of "Git gud on your own, scrub", even From games... and a usually (and thankfully IMO) much larger subset that not only don't mind, but actively encourage aiding stuck players in various ways, and in many occasions making the overall game experience better for it. I mean, look at the crazy shit people do in BotW/TotK! Or the amount of platforming tricks in Mario games and others that were only ever perfected through community sharing, or grinding spots and strategizing in various RPGs...
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addyb
New Member
Posts: 570
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Post by addyb on Sept 15, 2023 10:37:36 GMT
I would just like the option to skip a boss once they've twatted me for the 50th time. It's always been the blocker for me in these games, as much as I enjoy the elation of when i do overcome these obstacles.
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Post by rhaegyr on Sept 15, 2023 10:38:52 GMT
I would just like the option to skip a boss once they've twatted me for the 50th time. It's always been the blocker for me in these games, as much as I enjoy the elation of when i do overcome these obstacles. Absolutely. A friend of mine got to the last boss in Sekiro and couldn't beat him after 5-6 hours of trying. Loved the game up to that point and it really ruined the experience and game for him. I should probably stop teasing him about it...
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addyb
New Member
Posts: 570
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 10:41:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by addyb on Sept 15, 2023 10:41:47 GMT
I would just like the option to skip a boss once they've twatted me for the 50th time. It's always been the blocker for me in these games, as much as I enjoy the elation of when i do overcome these obstacles. Absolutely. A friend of mine got to the last boss in Sekiro and couldn't beat him after 5-6 hours of trying. Loved the game up to that point and it really ruined the experience and game for him. I should probably stop teasing him about it... This was me. Struggled to get through the game, but did and I just ran out of steam on the final boss. Couldn't do it, so I fucked it off. Didn't detract from my enjoyment though, as I had a great sense of achievement even getting to that finale.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 10:41:53 GMT
That's the thing though, not everyone wants that exact same experience. I don't enjoy the community stuff. I think it ruins the expierence as I want to discover everything on my own
In any other game, 'sharing strategies', 'Wiki diving', etc would be considered cheating. It is cheating in my opinion and you're ruining it for yourself. I don't really see the point in playing it like that. Certainly not getting uppity about people wanting the game to be easier And I'm not going to get uppity about you not wanting to engage with the community aspect, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there and other people like it. Much as you or I not getting uppity about the possibility of an easy mode doesn't change the fact that, if it were there as a toggle, other people (for various reasons) would dislike it... Besides, are we really going to argue that "Wiki diving" or "Sharing strategies" is something that's only acceptable in From games' fanbases? Every single game ever made has a subset of fans (usually a minority) that decry that in favour of "Git gud on your own, scrub", even From games... and a usually (and thankfully IMO) much larger subset that not only don't mind, but actively encourage aiding stuck players in various ways, and in many occasions making the overall game experience better for it. I mean, look at the crazy shit people do in BotW/TotK! Or the amount of platforming tricks in Mario games and others that were only ever perfected through community sharing, or grinding spots and strategizing in various RPGs... Yeah, I don't care if people share strategies or whatever. If that's how people enjoy it, go for it. But from the perspective of how I like to play them, it is cheating. Of course it is. I wouldn't do it for that reason. You're allowed to cheat, it's fine. But acting like you're still taking on the ultimate challenge the game has put before you while doing so is just silly to me
I could say anyone who uses guides or whatever is not getting the full experience I am, but it doesn't matter
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 10:42:52 GMT
At the end of the day, these are single player games. Having an easy mode is an option, wiki diving is an option, sharing strats and discoveries is an option, and ignoring all that and playing fully solo is also an option, and all such options (emphasis on options) should be equally acceptable if available.
Championing the inclusion of an easy mode, whether that's a toggle or weaved into the game, while downplaying other options (or, on the other extreme, entirely rejecting even the idea of an easy mode) is not something I'm going to agree with, sorry. If you think an easy mode/wiki diving is okay but the other is cheating (replace as applicable) we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 10:44:35 GMT
Sounds like we're on the same page, just quibbling over semantics! I'm against an 'Easy Mode' as it's still a difficulty tier and some people may feel excluded still as difficulty is all relative. Whereas with sliders people can tweak the game to their own playstyle and failing that, stick 'God Mode' on if they just want to experience the story. Yeah, you're one of the good ones, Reg
I'm not saying it has to be an Easy made specifically, just the ability to make the game easier across the board for people who want it
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Post by Vandelay on Sept 15, 2023 10:45:34 GMT
People are really jumping through hoops to do anything to avoid just adding an Easy mode. Anything but Easy mode! And I feel like you are jumping through a lot of hoops to justify adding an Easy mode! But really, I don't care that much whether they add it or not. I'm not going to refuse to play the next From game if they include an easy mode. I just feel it should be up to the developer whether they decide to add features like an easy mode or not. If someone doesn't like that they don't include one, then they should just play a different game, of which there are no shortages. Should also add that I can hold this opinion, whilst also thinking that the whole "git gud" crowd around From games are cuntish.
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Post by baihu1983 on Sept 15, 2023 10:47:43 GMT
If they won't add easy or sliders don't nerf weapons or spells when gamers figure out how to combine them to make it easier.
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Youthist
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Post by Youthist on Sept 15, 2023 10:49:34 GMT
I think From, Team Cherry etc make their games to target a specific addressable market who want that type of game, and they accept they are going to miss out on gamers who want a different more casual experience. They are possibly missing out on that type of gamer revenue, but potentially in the flip side would it turn off some of their current user base who know exactly what they want and expect in terms of difficulty if they tried to go broader.
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 10:54:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 10:54:41 GMT
If they won't add easy or sliders don't nerf weapons or spells when gamers figure out how to combine them to make it easier. For the record, I'm against that as well in the context of single player games. Fixing buggy interactions or things that don't work as they should is one thing, but outright nerfing should be left to PvP/multiplayer, which is why I was very happy when FromSoft started making PvP-exclusive changes recently with Elden Ring.
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Post by rhaegyr on Sept 15, 2023 10:56:26 GMT
All this chat and the bloody game isn't even out until Tuesday - I thought it was today!
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 10:59:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 10:59:53 GMT
I just preloaded the mother, only 32Gb, so the download wasn’t hard at least.
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Youthist
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Post by Youthist on Sept 15, 2023 11:16:03 GMT
I just preloaded the mother, only 32Gb, so the download wasn’t hard at least. Username checks out
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Tuffty
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tuffty on Sept 15, 2023 11:54:57 GMT
I've a friend that really enjoys Sekiro, thinks everything about it is great. He can't get past the Guardian Ape. The game is challenging for him and he enjoyed it despite some setbacks but the Guardian Ape is just a bridge too far. And as Sekiro has no co op, he can't even get help that way so he's left pretty stuck and just kinda dropped it.
My fiancee won't play anything that doesn't have a story mode difficulty. She enjoys playing games but she'll be the first to say she's not really good at them. So she appreciates it when a game has that difficulty so it's a worry free way to get into the game and enjoy the things she likes about the game like the art or the actual gameplay that would be otherwise a bit daunting.
I see all sides of the argument for this I really do and I wouldnt want From Soft to compromise on their intended difficulty, I think its nice to have. But I'll hardly bat an eye if they bring in easy mode in the next Dark Souls. Or if any game like Lies of P. It's not for me and that's OK, won't affect my experience.
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Derblington
Junior Member
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Post by Derblington on Sept 15, 2023 12:00:07 GMT
I play a ton of games on the easiest difficulties nowadays. I've platinumed stuff that's difficult - Bloodborne, for example - and could continue to do so in lots of other stuff. It's more about time, and in some cases just a relaxation aspect. I have far too many gaming interests, and if I can get what I want from them in less time spent in order to get to more experiences, then I'll do so. Not everything, but a lot of it.
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 12:02:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by baihu1983 on Sept 15, 2023 12:02:43 GMT
I think a lot of new players would find themselves going up to the normal difficulty if the got to play it on easy first. Simple way for them to learn the game without all the frustrations.
I'm also now reminded of giantbomb playing a game that listed the Yakuza series as higher difficulty than the Souls games.
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Frog
Full Member
Posts: 7,250
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 13:56:24 GMT
Why would anyone care if an easier difficulty gets added that you personally wouldn't use. It doesn't affect you at all. I can't think of any arguement against it that stands up really and it's all just a bit of elitism. You are all quite lucky that the people that like getting kicked in the bollocks and stuff rammed down their winky aren't in charge is what's acceptable in the world of sex
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