deebs
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So I was killing this pig with a hammer
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Post by deebs on Sept 25, 2021 1:50:00 GMT
Apologies to anyone who is heavily into this and is a true believer, as the majority here will just be using this thread to dump on the game. I'd be fascinated to hear your side of it though, so don't be offput. I just got an email informing me that CitizenCon (the irony of that name is too perfect) will be streaming on Twitch this year. It'll be the 7th.
I got in on the kickstarter early and only put 20 or 25 quid into the kitty, and some day, maybe, I'll get a full game out of it. However, people are still pouring their life savings into ships and ingame t-shirts on the offchance that it will some day resemble something akin to a fun, involving and playable game and not a collection of loosely strung together ideas. While each of those ideas have been realised to an extraordinarily detailed level, together they do not a game make.
I don't think there's anything much new to discuss aside from the game is still not out, the roadmap still doesn't have a sniff of a release date and honestly, at this point I doubt it will ever be released as a full title, just an endless beta cycle that will some day require a subscription.
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Post by dfunked on Sept 25, 2021 7:12:19 GMT
Kickstarter backer here, $37 nine bloody years ago. I still have a tiny bit of hope that one day there'll be a finished game that I can just sit down and play through.
Really can't fathom how people are still pouring money into it today, though. I was a foolish 30 year old who treated Kickstarter as a cheap way to preorder games that I wanted. Not sure what people are thinking now when they buy an expensive ship.
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Post by One_Vurfed_Gwrx on Sept 25, 2021 7:32:07 GMT
I think I got the $60 tier at the time, but I mainly backer for the Squadron 42 part with anything else being a bonus. Still hoping we at least get that part... I have only dabbled in the space sim alphas and an extremely small look at the FPS segment so far.
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grim
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Post by grim on Sept 25, 2021 8:00:50 GMT
I just look at the roadmap and depair:
I think they do too and instead of working they bugger off and play Fortnite
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 25, 2021 8:08:56 GMT
Ahhh, citizencon. It's like they're rubbing their sweaty balls in your face and laughing as you pay them more and money.
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zagibu
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Post by zagibu on Sept 25, 2021 19:43:02 GMT
Ahh, yes, SC, which stands for Star Citizen and Sunk Cost fallacy.
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cei
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Post by cei on Sept 26, 2021 18:05:22 GMT
I backed early days, with a 57k backer number, but at a pretty low level. I've subsequently sold ships to idiots who keep throwing new money at the "game", and I've currently made a profit of >£300. So even if Roberts doesn't deliver anything I've had my laugh.
Playing the "alpha" they have it shows glimpses of promise at times, and some of the tech on show is impressive to be fair. My worry is bringing all this in to a cohesive game any time soon, rather than it simply being a bunch of systems that aren't linked and therefore fail to be fun. TBH the biggest problem is that Roberts keeps re-working things, rather than making significant progress.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2021 20:24:22 GMT
I've only watched this from afar, in much the same way you look at a car crash from the other side of the carriageway. What's the hivemind view on this, is it just a bait-and-switch scam on a massive scale, or a genuine attempt by a visionary to deliver the undeliverable?
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myk
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Post by myk on Sept 26, 2021 20:31:21 GMT
I think they're trying to make the game, but I'm not sure it'll be that great a game. The ship stuff is a scam, one that's making them a lot of money. All I want is Squadron 42, I'm a bit annoyed that took a back seat to the MMO.
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nasty
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Post by nasty on Sept 26, 2021 20:42:37 GMT
I've backed to the tune of £200 ish in total over the years and I've played enough of it and had enough fun doing that to justify that amount of cash for me.
I've not played or pledged any more cash in the last 12 months for a few reasons. It's still falling short of some key elements that are pretty essential to it claiming back my interest eg it needs to become an actual mmo (an entire solar system being shared by 50 players is a bit shit), the game loops that are there just now are unreliable, the stability is poor, the performance is poor etc The fun I've had has either been based on enjoying the sheer beauty of the game or just general dicking about with some mates.
The level of details Chris Roberts is still demanding is the achillies heel of the games production, with seemingly unnecessary and large amounts of development time being put in to fluff that doesn't result in a better game (but would undoubtedly need to be there as part of a finished product).
At the end of it all, my biggest issue with it is going to be, can I be arsed playing it once it's finally done done.
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Post by spacein_vader on Sept 26, 2021 21:15:29 GMT
I've only watched this from afar, in much the same way you look at a car crash from the other side of the carriageway. What's the hivemind view on this, is it just a bait-and-switch scam on a massive scale, or a genuine attempt by a visionary to deliver the undeliverable? I have no horse in the race either, I think it's started as the latter and slowly morphed into the former when they saw the scale of the task. It's now essentially a Ponzi scheme, just a matter of how long till it collapses. |
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nazo
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Post by nazo on Sept 26, 2021 21:58:19 GMT
At the end of it all, my biggest issue with it is going to be, can I be arsed playing it once it's finally done done. Don’t worry, that’s not a problem you’ll ever have to face. |
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skalpadda
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Post by skalpadda on Sept 27, 2021 10:06:22 GMT
I just look at the roadmap and depair: Is this the roadmap they released a roadmap to like.. last year? I tried to read up on this around that time because I hadn't followed it and I didn't understand what the hell was going on. There's an incredible amount of information but it's all nearly impenetrable for an outsider (and I suspect rather cofusing for people on the inside as well). Just trying to work out which of the myriad of subprojects where released, what they actually were, when and why delays had happened was nearly impossible. It's hard not to think they were being vague and confusing on purpose. |
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 27, 2021 10:10:00 GMT
It's probably vague and confusing because they themselves don't know, especially when you have a continuous stream of money coming in all on the promise of a vision. That vision is very powerful and the money stops when that vision becomes reality and people begin to compare what was sold them and what they actually got. Essentially this game can never be finished.
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Sept 27, 2021 10:31:22 GMT
At some point people will start wanting a return on what they paid for.
I just hope I'll be there to see it.
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skalpadda
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Post by skalpadda on Sept 27, 2021 10:55:55 GMT
What I've seen from people who backed the kickstarter is either resignation and writeoff or diehard true believers who say they don't care if it's in development for another hundred years. I'm not sure there's anyone to really hold them to account. At some point the company may implode and that could get interesting. I'm honestly surprised they seem to have managed to hold on to staff given how little they've actually accomplished.
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 27, 2021 11:08:05 GMT
At some point the company may implode and that could get interesting. The assets they've developed up to that point (code, art, whatever) will be stuff to sell off by the administrator. Presumably someone will go "oh there's a half finished game here" and try and smack in to something that's marketable.
If they honour any kickstarter contributions would be the interesting bit.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 27, 2021 11:08:22 GMT
I've often wondered about that aspect, as a games developer that's not great for the CV when this may be your only job in the industry and you haven't shipped anything.
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 27, 2021 11:12:24 GMT
I have no idea how the industry works, and maybe someone could correct if wrong, but I'd imagine:
1. if you're just a code monkey you're hardly going to be blamed for godawful leadership of the project. More senior devs, sure.
2. You'd probably want to list them for interview to just hear the gossip, no?
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 27, 2021 11:18:55 GMT
I have no idea how the industry works, and maybe someone could correct if wrong, but I'd imagine: 1. if you're just a code monkey you're hardly going to be blamed for godawful leadership of the project. More senior devs, sure. 2. You'd probably want to list them for interview to just hear the gossip, no? Well you'd need to point to something you have worked on to delivery as proof you're eligible for the role I would imagine. Not sure how you could do that with something like this game. |
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 27, 2021 11:22:22 GMT
Well the game *is* out there. People can play it. Just because it's not gone gold and has an RRP attached to it doesn't mean it's not a piece of work you can't demo and go point out the bits that you can go "I made this" to
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 27, 2021 11:27:15 GMT
Hmmm, perhaps. I'd love to know what the turnover is like tbh.
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Sept 27, 2021 12:24:17 GMT
Well the game *is* out there. People can play it. Just because it's not gone gold and has an RRP attached to it doesn't mean it's not a piece of work you can't demo and go point out the bits that you can go "I made this" to I imagine some potential employers would also want to know your marketability. Like, it's one thing to say "I worked on this game that got 85 on metacritic" versus "I worked on this game, we got tons of money but tbf nobody knows if the game is good or not, I guess the diehards liked what they could play though?". Anyway, I'd like to know where all that money is really going. It sounds like a scam, but I'm still going to give them the benefit of doubt, and just assume that the leaders are grossly incompetent at planning rather than actively malicious. |
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 27, 2021 12:28:37 GMT
I gather their operating costs are quite big when you factor in the number of staff they employ and what Roberts says he wants to be in the game and you look at how much progress they've actually made in all this time. But at the same time you also look at how much management is making, I'm sure I read a piece about Roberts and his wife and how much they were getting out of this.
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Post by Tonka (🐑,🪤) on Sept 27, 2021 12:57:13 GMT
Serious question.
Have they started offering NFT's and done an ICO under the banner "We put the Verse in the MetaVerse?"
'Tis a match made in heaven.
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skalpadda
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Post by skalpadda on Sept 27, 2021 13:43:02 GMT
Anyway, I'd like to know where all that money is really going. I'm not privy to any numbers obviously but it seems like a substantial chunk of the operations is aimed more at the community stuff than game development. I was surprised to see just how much promotional material they were churning out for their backers. Many hours of video almost every day, ads (some with celebrity VO) for ship sales, and so on. I've never seen that much marketing churn from a developer and they even put big publishers to shame in terms of sheer quantity. And they did mad stuff like build their own social media platform. It does rather support the idea that their main business isn't to ship a game but keeping the eternal funding faucet running. |
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zagibu
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Post by zagibu on Sept 27, 2021 16:12:47 GMT
Chris Roberts is a control freak and completely incapable of getting anything done. The only real success he had was wayyyy back when he had to work under severe technical limitations. Freelancer would already have turned into the same endless development hell, if Microsoft hadn't taken control away from him and put someone in place who could finish stuff.
SC will never release in any playable state, because the project has no borders. Chris Robert's vision is basically the simulation of a complete sci-fi universe, and everything in real time and highest definition. Having fun is not the main goal of the project, which is made apparent by how they tackled stuff like cargo delivery and navigation on stations. They will constantly have to update art assets and engine to new technical standards, while bleeding talent like a whale bleeds in japanese waters.
With all that said I can't deny being amazed at how long they managed to keep the ball rolling.
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cei
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Post by cei on Sept 27, 2021 19:37:14 GMT
Anyway, I'd like to know where all that money is really going. It sounds like a scam, but I'm still going to give them the benefit of doubt, and just assume that the leaders are grossly incompetent at planning rather than actively malicious. They have something like 600 employees in various offices around the world, so their workforce bill is significant every single month and is going to chew through large amounts of the ongoing cash stream. Throw in the costs of renting the offices etc etc. I don't think Roberts is secretly sitting on a massive pot of gold. What he is doing is wasting a lot of time (and therefore money) by constantly moving the development goalposts rather than concentrating on getting to actual launch. I think the accusations of it being a ponzi scheme/scam etc are in poor faith. I'm sure Roberts and everybody else involved actually want to launch the game, but they're feeding a monster. The marketing brings in more money, which funds development, which allows Roberts to keep fiddling. What really needs to happen is the money tap turns off so they need to actually launch a product, or Roberts steps back and allows others to project manage and deliver. |
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skalpadda
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Post by skalpadda on Sept 28, 2021 3:05:36 GMT
I think the accusations of it being a ponzi scheme/scam etc are in poor faith. After nearly 10 years with nothing being nailed down it's kind of hard to give Roberts the benefit of the doubt. Ponzi scheme isn't the right word, but the way they've treated their community ("investors") is certainly exploitative in the extreme and arguably manipulative in ways that are very difficult to defend. |
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neilka
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Post by neilka on Oct 7, 2021 0:17:26 GMT
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