kal
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Jul 23, 2023 11:52:25 GMT
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Post by kal on Jul 23, 2023 11:52:25 GMT
I'm generally pretty critical of Snyder's DC, but one area where I think he made a good decision was giving us an already established Batman and dropping them into a film with other heroes. We'd already had so many solo Batman films at that point and were coming off the back of the incredibly adored Dark Knight trilogy. It helped differentiate this new universe. Now, making him basically a caricature of the worst aspects of Frank Miller, and denying us a proper fully-fledged Superman movie, those were poor decisions IMO. He did a proper fully-fledged Superman movie. It was a full Batman movie that never happened. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Jul 23, 2023 12:31:15 GMT
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jul 23, 2023 12:31:15 GMT
It was helped by the fact that, at the time, nobody in their right mind wanted another Batman origin story.
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kal
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Post by kal on Jul 23, 2023 12:47:21 GMT
There’s actually only really been one Batman origin film. Feel like there’s a bit of Mandela Effect there.
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Bongo Heracles
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Jul 23, 2023 13:34:31 GMT
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jul 23, 2023 13:34:31 GMT
Batman (1989) charts his first steps as the Batman so I think that probably counts. But, yes, it’s probably more accurate to say ‘origin stories’ full stop, especially the ones as folkloric as that.
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DC Films
Jul 23, 2023 13:36:10 GMT
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2023 13:36:10 GMT
At this point any Batman film that has a shot of pearls falling on the ground in an alleyway is origin adjacent.
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geefe
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Jul 23, 2023 14:07:18 GMT
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Post by geefe on Jul 23, 2023 14:07:18 GMT
I mean, considering how much he broods over it, I'd say it's less origin and more "continued trauma".
Fairly sure he's thought about it when fighting any number of villains. Scarecrow, Riddler, Hush, Freeze, Two Face.
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Jul 23, 2023 14:11:07 GMT
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 23, 2023 14:11:07 GMT
Batman is the personification of the character's continued trauma I don't think the audience needs to see pearls falling in every new iteration to understand the link.
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kal
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Jul 23, 2023 14:16:29 GMT
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Post by kal on Jul 23, 2023 14:16:29 GMT
I feel like true origin films have a very specific arc. They are a sub genre in themselves at this point. If they don’t dedicate 50-75% to things like ‘discovering their powers’ and ‘how they got their costume/name/catchphrase’ it doesn’t count for me.
Considering how many cinematic versions of Batman there have been I think you could argue they’ve been relatively restrained in covering the origin compared to say Spider-Man. The MCU used that formula for like 15 different films or something.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Jul 23, 2023 14:36:44 GMT
Yeah only Batman Begins really does a proper origin story. The others mention it but he's already all set up as Batman in every other film, even if he's still a bit mysterious. Considering they've had 6 major actors do it only one of them really properly did an origin movie. Also it was the best of the sets of movies to do it.
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Jul 23, 2023 16:07:26 GMT
The show and overtly explain his origin in (from memory) Batman, Batman Forever, Batman Begins, Batman v Superman and maybe it even happens in The Batman, I forget. I don’t know about the animated movies but I bet it’s there.
It’s also tedious how often they’ve put Spider-Man’s origin on screen and notably it barely gets mentioned in the six or so MCU movies he’s been in.
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Post by baihu1983 on Jul 23, 2023 17:01:58 GMT
Snyder didn't need to do a Batman origin but to rush straight to what they did and kill Superman off in just the 2nd film was such a rush job.
Killed a tease of a live action CoIE somewhere down the line to do an animated version instead
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DC Films
Jul 23, 2023 19:25:40 GMT
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Post by Nemesis on Jul 23, 2023 19:25:40 GMT
Never known a man so miserable over a Pearl necklace; cheer up fella.
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kal
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Jul 23, 2023 19:37:04 GMT
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Post by kal on Jul 23, 2023 19:37:04 GMT
The show and overtly explain his origin in (from memory) Batman, Batman Forever, Batman Begins, Batman v Superman and maybe it even happens in The Batman, I forget. I don’t know about the animated movies but I bet it’s there. It’s also tedious how often they’ve put Spider-Man’s origin on screen and notably it barely gets mentioned in the six or so MCU movies he’s been in. Again there’s a very big difference between a quick flashback to make sure everyone’s caught up on the origin, and an entire film dedicated to the origin story. Batman has done the latter just once. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 24, 2023 1:40:20 GMT
Darkness. No parents!
When we're at the point that multiple official movies/shows are taking the piss out of him continually being grumpy about his parents, I think we probably don't need any more detailed origin stories.
Batman 1 was basically an origin story imho, it just didn't focus on all the stuff about training etc..
I think Batman, Superman and Spiderman are so well known these days that even someone who hasn't seen any of their movies probably knows the basics of their origin story.
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geefe
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Jul 24, 2023 7:15:11 GMT
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Post by geefe on Jul 24, 2023 7:15:11 GMT
They're characters like Sherlock Holmes or Dracula, now. Really, it's impressive that mass media still regularly consumes them.
I don't think their creators had any intention of them lasting 60, 70 or 80+ years.
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Jul 24, 2023 7:53:01 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Jul 24, 2023 7:53:01 GMT
I think origin story is very much a defined trope. It is referring to specific arc type, which follows a very formulaic pattern. The order is pretty much always protagonist starts in a normalish life, gains superpowers, doesn't know how to use powers, faces tragedy, gains an adversary (may or may not be related to tragedy) learns how to make most of powers/responsibility/be heroic/etc whilst defeating adversary. Sometimes the tragedy may happen before the powers, such as with Batman, and become a motivation to gain powers and seek revenge.
The joke about Batman's parents is more to do with each piece of media uses it as major motivation for his actions. Because of this, it gets re-enacted all the time. The films definitely aren't origin stories though, certainly not in the way the phrase is commonly used.
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Post by britesparc on Jul 24, 2023 8:02:34 GMT
Yeah, I think when people say "we've seen Batman's origin story too many times" they don't mean "there's been nine adaptations of Year One", they mean almost every Batman film seems to come back to his parents, his trauma, his past, etc, in a way that I don't think most other superheroes do. I think when BvS gave us a Batman who'd been around for twenty years but still had the plot hang on his parents, that kind of tipped things over the edge to the point where it became a gag.
I think the same thing could have been argued about Superman if Legacy was redoing the origin; or Spidey if Homecoming had killed Uncle Ben again.
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Jul 24, 2023 8:26:28 GMT
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 24, 2023 8:26:28 GMT
Spider-Man is always banging on about his uncle.
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kal
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Post by kal on Jul 24, 2023 8:30:13 GMT
Batmansplaining.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Jul 24, 2023 8:47:18 GMT
Tbf, if you saw your parents murdered in front of you down a dark alley at the age of 8, I'd say that weighs pretty heavily on you.
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zephro
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Jul 24, 2023 9:04:36 GMT
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Post by zephro on Jul 24, 2023 9:04:36 GMT
All films refer back to some motivation though. Spidey it's family, Aunt May Uncle thingamy. Captain America its King flag, country and American Pie or his buddies from the war etc.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 24, 2023 9:13:00 GMT
Spiderverse basically does the joke about Uncle Ben, though not really as a joke.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 24, 2023 9:22:52 GMT
All films refer back to some motivation though. Spidey it's family, Aunt May Uncle thingamy. Captain America its King flag, country and American Pie or his buddies from the war etc. /Apple pie falls on the alleyway floor in slow motion |
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Jul 24, 2023 11:34:00 GMT
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Post by Leolian'sBro on Jul 24, 2023 11:34:00 GMT
Whole Flash film is currently up on Youtube.
Holy crap it really is as bad as everyone has said. What a mess.
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Jul 24, 2023 15:14:14 GMT
The show and overtly explain his origin in (from memory) Batman, Batman Forever, Batman Begins, Batman v Superman and maybe it even happens in The Batman, I forget. I don’t know about the animated movies but I bet it’s there. It’s also tedious how often they’ve put Spider-Man’s origin on screen and notably it barely gets mentioned in the six or so MCU movies he’s been in. Again there’s a very big difference between a quick flashback to make sure everyone’s caught up on the origin, and an entire film dedicated to the origin story. Batman has done the latter just once. The distinction I’m making is that, in the films I’ve mentioned, Batman’s inciting incident (the parents murder) is shown, referred to numerous times, is a major plot point of the movie, draws a relationship to the antagonist or is exploited by the protagonist. The Dark Knight, which might be the best Batman movie, is just Batman pursuing a criminal. I don’t think it mentions his inciting incident at all from memory, unless it’s Alfred gravely saying how he has to look out for him. Let’s have more of that. |
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DC Films
Jul 24, 2023 15:55:37 GMT
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 24, 2023 15:55:37 GMT
His Parents murder isn’t a major plot point of Batman Forever or Batman vs Superman. It is in The Batman but in a very different way.
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geefe
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Jul 24, 2023 16:35:54 GMT
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Post by geefe on Jul 24, 2023 16:35:54 GMT
Not quite sure this is the hill to die on. We've had pretty much one Batman origin story. Sure, it's mentioned in passing in others but that's one of those "btw if you didn't know" things.
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DC Films
Jul 24, 2023 17:45:36 GMT
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 24, 2023 17:45:36 GMT
Batman is from Boston.
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Jul 25, 2023 9:34:40 GMT
His Parents murder isn’t a major plot point of Batman Forever or Batman vs Superman. It is in The Batman but in a very different way. I recall Bruce Wayne using Riddler’s mind machine and it plucking memories from him that Jim Carey tries to use against him. They show the murder in BVS and it’s literally tied in to why Batman stops himself killing Superman. Save Maaaarthaaaaa. I don’t remember much about The Batman so sure. |
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Post by britesparc on Jul 25, 2023 9:54:32 GMT
Also in Batman Forever there's this whole (rather ham-fisted) subplot about him not knowing who's real, Bruce Wayne or the Batman, and he's talking to Nicole Kidman's psychiatrist about his parents' death, and the funeral, and all this stuff. It's sort of about him moving past the trauma and, I guess, finding a new family.
I still think it's a fair criticism of most Batman films that they go back to the well of "Bruce can't get past/keeps reliving his parents' death". It's not necessarily an out-there plot point for Batman (I know some people hold to the belief that Bruce is genuinely psychologically damaged), but I've read loads of Batman comics where the Waynes are never mentioned, so it does get a bit tiresome. I hope The Brave and the Bold doesn't feel the need.
I'll give The Batman a lot of credit, incidentally, for bringing his parents back into the story but in a more interesting way, certainly one not seen in live-action before, and really without Bruce seeming to be too bogged down by the trauma and grief of their murder.
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