Dgzter
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Post by Dgzter on Mar 31, 2022 10:37:20 GMT
I really should get around to finishing the first one. Think I parked it just as I was heading to the Castle.
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Apr 11, 2022 5:06:57 GMT
I should really get around to starting it. kal dev kits are supposedly out there, though I guess the pandemic and the chip shortage will determine how soon we see a finished product. |
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 5:34:54 GMT
I should really get around to starting it. kal dev kits are supposedly out there, though I guess the pandemic and the chip shortage will determine how soon we see a finished product. There were quite a few reveals from reputable journalists of the 4K DLSS Dev Kits so it should be coming at some point. No idea if Nintendo just delayed it or have changed plans. Obviously the Switch is still selling shitloads but they can't wait for sales to drop off before adding a new model. I hope to get it by next year, I'm not playing the Switch these days, after seeing so many examples of better experiences of existing games on new hardware, I'm holding off to play stuff on Switch Pro/2. |
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Frog
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Post by Frog on Apr 11, 2022 5:40:56 GMT
There will not be a 4k switch, the ps5 and the series X can barely do it at acceptable frame rates and its way too far a gap between that and the existing switch which can barely do 1080p for Devs to make for both. Having a switch which can manage 1080p at 60fps would be more a far more realistic target.
It's like saying the Xbox and ps5 can output at 8k, yeah they can in theory but you won't be seeing it.
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 5:49:29 GMT
There will not be a 4k switch, the ps5 and the series X can barely do it at acceptable frame rates and its way too far a gap between that and the existing switch which can barely do 1080p for Devs to make for both. Having a switch which can manage 1080p at 60fps would be more a far more realistic target. It's like saying the Xbox and ps5 can output at 8k, yeah they can in theory but you won't be seeing it. |
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Frog
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Post by Frog on Apr 11, 2022 5:57:26 GMT
720p or 1080p upscaled to 4k is a very different thing and often looks like shit, dlss is a great technology and is improving but there are still a lot of games where people turn it off due to not being happy with the implementation, building a whole console around it is a risky choice at the moment. I would prefer to play something at native 1440p than upscaling it to 4k as you get consistent image quality.
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 6:07:33 GMT
720p or 1080p upscaled to 4k is a very different thing and often looks like shit, dlss is a great technology and is improving but there are still a lot of games where people turn it off due to not being happy with the implementation, building a whole console around it is a risky choice at the moment. I would prefer to play something at native 1440p than upscaling it to 4k as you get consistent image quality. I don't imagine Nintendo and Nvidia would release a console around if it wasn't working well, maybe as well as chip shortages they needed more time to have it running solidly. A proper DLSS console with games specifically released for it isn't the same as in the PC space. |
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Frog
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Post by Frog on Apr 11, 2022 6:15:42 GMT
It is the same though, dlss isn't part of a console (it's a feature with varying results, everyone turns it off on cod as it messes the image up) and it's good but you seem to be overestimating its ability. You also have to look at Nintendo's hardware history to see that they never sit at the top of innovation. They make profits on all of the consoles they sell. Look at the cost of the Steam deck and the performance of that, Nintendo won't be costing a console anywhere near that.
Honestly the best thing the switch could look to do is 1080p at 60fps and forget about 4k.
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 6:29:04 GMT
It is the same though, dlss isn't part of a console (it's a feature with varying results, everyone turns it off on cod as it messes the image up) and it's good but you seem to be overestimating its ability. You also have to look at Nintendo's hardware history to see that they never sit at the top of innovation. They make profits on all of the consoles they sell. Look at the cost of the Steam deck and the performance of that, Nintendo won't be costing a console anywhere near that. I really don't understand your argument. It was leaked from dev kits that they were working on a next Switch console which using DLSS will output at 4k. The chipset hasn't even been released yet, Nintendo and Nvidia have been working on it for years and it is the perfect setup where DLSS can be extremely beneficial but you're convinced it won't work well because it's not perfect on PCs currently and Nintendo makes profit on hardware? BTW Nintendo don't make profits on all their consoles at launch (Wii U was sold at a loss), not that it's relevant. |
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Apr 11, 2022 6:39:13 GMT
I don't know about the techy stuff, but from a consumer perspective I would rather solid 1080p/60fps performance than 4K.
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Post by Danno on Apr 11, 2022 7:13:43 GMT
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Post by Aunt Alison on Apr 11, 2022 7:40:59 GMT
I should really get around to starting it. kal dev kits are supposedly out there, though I guess the pandemic and the chip shortage will determine how soon we see a finished product. There were quite a few reveals from reputable journalists of the 4K DLSS Dev Kits so it should be coming at some point. No idea if Nintendo just delayed it or have changed plans. Obviously the Switch is still selling shitloads but they can't wait for sales to drop off before adding a new model. I hope to get it by next year, I'm not playing the Switch these days, after seeing so many examples of better experiences of existing games on new hardware, I'm holding off to play stuff on Switch Pro/2. Which games are you holding out for? |
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Post by Vandelay on Apr 11, 2022 7:45:23 GMT
I do find it odd that when talking about a Switch 2 (or Pro or Super or whatever) we seem to jump straight to wanting it to be able to do 4K. And yet, we have just had a portable PC released that people have been blown away by the performance. The Steam Deck does a maximum of 800p and generally targets 30fps. Even DF will regularly do this, praising the Deck in one article and then speculate about a 4K Switch in the next (although they at least always have some skeptism in their speculation).
The only plausible story on a 4K Switch I've seen is that it would be capable of outputting at that res. That would mean they could have Netflix, etc on there and output the full quality, but games would still target a lower output (much like with PS5 and Series X they can output 8K, but no game ever will). Games actually doing it always seemed like a pipedream.
I'm not sure how much we should really be wanting it either. I would much rather 1440p 60fps (and, to be honest, 1080p undocked would be absolutely fine).
Plus, with OLED only really having been released, I can't see Nintendo releasing another SKU of the same product so soon, particularly one that the same market that just bought the OLED would probably have been interested. I expect we will be seeing something that will be marketed as a new console and that will be releasing 2024, maybe end of 2023 absolute earliest.
I've not seen the story about dev kits, but I've seen plenty of nonsense stories about a high end Switch that have found their way into the mainstream press. None have ended up being accurate. I'm only going to believe there is a new Switch or Nintendo console when it is officially announced.
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 7:50:05 GMT
There were quite a few reveals from reputable journalists of the 4K DLSS Dev Kits so it should be coming at some point. No idea if Nintendo just delayed it or have changed plans. Obviously the Switch is still selling shitloads but they can't wait for sales to drop off before adding a new model. I hope to get it by next year, I'm not playing the Switch these days, after seeing so many examples of better experiences of existing games on new hardware, I'm holding off to play stuff on Switch Pro/2. Which games are you holding out for? Xenoblade 3, Kirby, Splatoon 3, BOTW2. |
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 7:51:16 GMT
I do find it odd that when talking about a Switch 2 (or Pro or Super or whatever) we seem to jump straight to wanting it to be able to do 4K. And yet, we have just had a portable PC released that people have been blown away by the performance. The Steam Deck does a maximum of 800p and generally targets 30fps. Even DF will regularly do this, praising the Deck in one article and then speculate about a 4K Switch in the next (although they at least always have some skeptism in their speculation). The only plausible story on a 4K Switch I've seen is that it would be capable of outputting at that res. That would mean they could have Netflix, etc on there and output the full quality, but games would still target a lower output (much like with PS5 and Series X they can output 8K, but no game ever will). Games actually doing it always seemed like a pipedream. I'm not sure how much we should really be wanting it either. I would much rather 1440p 60fps (and, to be honest, 1080p undocked would be absolutely fine). Plus, with OLED only really having been released, I can't see Nintendo releasing another SKU of the same product so soon, particularly one that the same market that just bought the OLED would probably have been interested. I expect we will be seeing something that will be marketed as a new console and that will be releasing 2024, maybe end of 2023 absolute earliest. I've not seen the story about dev kits, but I've seen plenty of nonsense stories about a high end Switch that have found their way into the mainstream press. None have ended up being accurate. I'm only going to believe there is a new Switch or Nintendo console when it is officially announced. No-one, anywhere is suggesting that Switch 2 will render at 4K, It'll likely render somewhere between 720P and 1080P and output at 14440p or 4k with AI up-resing using DLSS. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Apr 11, 2022 7:53:58 GMT
Which games are you holding out for? Xenoblade 3, Kirby, Splatoon 3, BOTW2. Oh. Thought you meant you've slept on some games like Metroid or something (which I had no performance issues with) |
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Post by Vandelay on Apr 11, 2022 8:06:27 GMT
I do find it odd that when talking about a Switch 2 (or Pro or Super or whatever) we seem to jump straight to wanting it to be able to do 4K. And yet, we have just had a portable PC released that people have been blown away by the performance. The Steam Deck does a maximum of 800p and generally targets 30fps. Even DF will regularly do this, praising the Deck in one article and then speculate about a 4K Switch in the next (although they at least always have some skeptism in their speculation). The only plausible story on a 4K Switch I've seen is that it would be capable of outputting at that res. That would mean they could have Netflix, etc on there and output the full quality, but games would still target a lower output (much like with PS5 and Series X they can output 8K, but no game ever will). Games actually doing it always seemed like a pipedream. I'm not sure how much we should really be wanting it either. I would much rather 1440p 60fps (and, to be honest, 1080p undocked would be absolutely fine). Plus, with OLED only really having been released, I can't see Nintendo releasing another SKU of the same product so soon, particularly one that the same market that just bought the OLED would probably have been interested. I expect we will be seeing something that will be marketed as a new console and that will be releasing 2024, maybe end of 2023 absolute earliest. I've not seen the story about dev kits, but I've seen plenty of nonsense stories about a high end Switch that have found their way into the mainstream press. None have ended up being accurate. I'm only going to believe there is a new Switch or Nintendo console when it is officially announced. No-one, anywhere is suggesting that Switch 2 will render at 4K, It'll likely render somewhere between 720P and 1080P and output at 14440p or 4k with AI up-resing using DLSS. And the Deck can do that with FSR as well. It isn't the saviour for high res that people think it is. DLSS is a wonderful bit of tech, but even it can't make a 720p upscaled to 4k look good. |
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 8:27:41 GMT
So, an unreleased Nintendo/NVidia DLSS solution won't look good because a current upscaling solution from a different company isn't as good as you'd hope.
Is that the logic?
I've no idea how good It'll be (obviously, it's not out yet) but it would seem surprising that Nintendo and Nvidia would spend years and undoubtedly enormous sums on the successor to the most successful console in the world (which was solid technically in it's day) on a solution that isn't going to work well.
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 8:30:07 GMT
Xenoblade 3, Kirby, Splatoon 3, BOTW2. Oh. Thought you meant you've slept on some games like Metroid or something (which I had no performance issues with) I think the only game I discounted performance-wise was the Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity demo. I started Paper Mario and might pick that up again, it runs fine but is crying out for some HDR love  |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Apr 11, 2022 8:36:27 GMT
Oh. Thought you meant you've slept on some games like Metroid or something (which I had no performance issues with) I think the only game I discounted performance-wise was the Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity demo. I started Paper Mario and might pick that up again, it runs fine but is crying out for some HDR love  AoC is quite bad but it's so chaotic that I didn't really pay much attention to it. The inputs and combat are so simple that it doesn't really affect gameplay. Worth playing at some point though - emulates everything about BotW really well |
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Post by Vandelay on Apr 11, 2022 9:01:05 GMT
So, an unreleased Nintendo/NVidia DLSS solution won't look good because a current upscaling solution from a different company isn't as good as you'd hope. Is that the logic? I've no idea how good It'll be (obviously, it's not out yet) but it would seem surprising that Nintendo and Nvidia would spend years and undoubtedly enormous sums on the successor to the most successful console in the world (which was solid technically in it's day) on a solution that isn't going to work well. I'm not sure what you are talking about. We have DLSS now. I can use it and it is good. It is nowhere near as good as native and that is upscaling 1080p to 1440p. Reports of 1080p to 4k are that it isnt worth using in most cases. Yes, they may have a newer version in a theoretical Switch, but it will be based on the same tech. Yes, I referenced the Deck implementation of FSR, as that is a portable device using a similar upscaling tech. No, it isn't exactly the same, but it is worthwhile comparison. Reports of plugging a Deck into a bigger screen suggest it doesn't look great. Upscaling tech might have come on a long way and might continue to get better. It is never going to be some magic cure-all solution that is some how going to turn a device that is designed to be a low power draw portable console into a current-gen under the TV console killer. We currently have consoles that can just about target 60fps at around 1440p or 30fps at around about 4k in most cases (remember, this is using dynamic resolution solutions). A new Nintendo portable console at their usual price point isn't going to match that, DLSS or not. |
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 9:01:34 GMT
I think the only game I discounted performance-wise was the Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity demo. I started Paper Mario and might pick that up again, it runs fine but is crying out for some HDR love AoC is quite bad but it's so chaotic that I didn't really pay much attention to it. The inputs and combat are so simple that it doesn't really affect gameplay. Worth playing at some point though - emulates everything about BotW really well It's exactly the kind of game I'd love to give a go on Switch 2 with a smooth framerate, was unfortunately too jarring for me. Seemed like fun though. |
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 9:06:09 GMT
So, an unreleased Nintendo/NVidia DLSS solution won't look good because a current upscaling solution from a different company isn't as good as you'd hope. Is that the logic? I've no idea how good It'll be (obviously, it's not out yet) but it would seem surprising that Nintendo and Nvidia would spend years and undoubtedly enormous sums on the successor to the most successful console in the world (which was solid technically in it's day) on a solution that isn't going to work well. I'm not sure what you are talking about. We have DLSS now. I can use it and it is good. It is nowhere near as good as native and that is upscaling 1080p to 1440p. Reports of 1080p to 4k are that it isnt worth using in most cases. Yes, they may have a newer version in a theoretical Switch, but it will be based on the same tech. Yes, I referenced the Deck implementation of FSR, as that is a portable device using a similar upscaling tech. No, it isn't exactly the same, but it is worthwhile comparison. Reports of plugging a Deck into a bigger screen suggest it doesn't look great. Upscaling tech might have come on a long way and might continue to get better. It is never going to be some magic cure-all solution that is some how going to turn a device that is designed to be a low power draw portable console into a current-gen under the TV console killer. We currently have consoles that can just about target 60fps at around 1440p or 30fps at around about 4k in most cases (remember, this is using dynamic resolution solutions). A new Nintendo portable console at their usual price point isn't going to match that, DLSS or not. Who said It'll be a "current-gen under the TV console killer."? Who said It'll match the other consoles? It's a way to give Switch 2 a chance of having significantly better image quality on a TV than it's predecessor, that's it. Feel free to write off an unreleased product, I'll keep an open-mind and also assume that Nintendo and Nvidia haven't turned into morons in the last 5 years. |
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Post by Phattso on Apr 11, 2022 9:45:51 GMT
You are ignoring the quite substantial drawbacks of the tech. Nintendo are famously covetous of the "look" of their games - I doubt a tech famous for smearing and glitching is going to get the job done for them. If Nvidia had solved that issue, you'd bet your bollocks to a barn dance it'd be on PC already. That being Nvidia's real market and all that.
Best bet is it's a technology for docked mode, and that's it. In handheld mode it is is going to have to fend for itself on the power of the APU alone, I suspect.
Or, to put it another way, DLSS won't cure the root issue of the device likely not having the grunt for all the pretties at 60fps. Steam Deck has shown us that.
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Post by JuniorFE on Apr 11, 2022 9:58:38 GMT
My two cents, Nintendo in my experience has never really cared about keeping its consoles on the cutting edge of resolution/graphics tech. It's almost always been about innovation, substance in the gameplay and clever art design for the most part. Given the choice between a "risky" high tech solution that could also, as has been mentioned, clash with art design in a lot of cases, and a "safer", still good quality solution that lets them perform better in other aspects, they would (again, based on what they've shown so far) more than likely go with the latter, at least for the first iteration of the hypothetical Switch 2. Of course, I'm always ready to be pleasantly surprised and I'd never say no to a top-end resolution Switch 2... Just as long as the games' other aspects don't suffer for it  |
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Post by Fake_Blood on Apr 11, 2022 10:26:14 GMT
Nvidia’s mobile chips all have tensor cores as the main use is in automobile applications, so it figures that a downscaled version will have the ability to run dlss. And if it helps zelda look a bit better on 4k tvs that’s all it has to do.
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スコットランド
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Post by スコットランド on Apr 11, 2022 11:01:25 GMT
Does anyone know then why they’re going ahead using DLSS on Switch 2 when it’s shit?
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Post by Phattso on Apr 11, 2022 11:06:10 GMT
Why are you being a prick about it? The "pure" experience will be on the device's own screen. DLSS will likely be a crutch (with negative side effects) to be even passable on a 4K TV. That's it. As to why? I'm not sure, probably because they want their cake and to eat it too.
And it's not "shit" it's just "a powerful technology with potentially a number of undesirable side effects" that, in this case, go rather against Nintendo's usual MO.
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Post by Phattso on Apr 11, 2022 11:10:24 GMT
I use DLSS on my Windows laptop to get from 1080p up to 1440p with all the bells and whistles turned on at 60+FPS. In that context, with lots of brute force and the right quality settings, it has been great for a lot of games. A less powerful implementation, trying to leap all the way to 4K is absolutely gonna have side effects. But then Nintendo have been content with the Switch looking quite poor on 4K TVs up until now, so maybe this is just the same taken to the next logical step, It'll still look a bit dodgy in places at 4K, but at least it'll be sharp! |
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Post by snackplissken on Apr 11, 2022 11:18:51 GMT
It's too jarring for my EYES. Oh god the 30 fps!
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