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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:56:58 GMT
I think Shumi only had one season were he won with a ridiculous amount of races still to race. The rest are on about a par with how early Vettel and Lewis sometimes won with races remaining. But the whole point system did change meaning a lot more points are available each race. Otherwise Vettel/Lewis would probably have won far earlier in the season, I think? 2000 - 1 race to go 2001 - 4 races to go 2002 - 6 races to go 2003 - last race 2004 - 4 races to go I'd say pretty similar to Merc era. Figured I'd do Vettel as well as it is quite interesting: 2010 - last race 2011 - 4 races to go 2012 - last race 2013 - 3 races to go |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 12:57:08 GMT
It doesn't help that there are more races these days. Dominance spread over almost an entire calendar year is always going to feel worse than dominance over season that is shorter by months.
It's also that it has been so baked in for the entireity of the hybrid era and less teams capable of even being able to remain in their pit stop window for the first 10 laps of a race. Always felt like there was an outside chance of McLaren/Williams BMW rocking up and pinching a race here or there.
It's not been a great spell for the sport by any stretch.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 13:06:07 GMT
2000 - 1 race to go 2001 - 4 races to go 2002 - 6 races to go 2003 - last race 2004 - 4 races to go I'd say pretty similar to Merc era. Figured I'd do Vettel as well as it is quite interesting: 2010 - last race 2011 - 4 races to go 2012 - last race 2013 - 3 races to go Hamilton 2014 - last race 2015 - 3 to go 2016 - last race (Rosberg) 2017 - 3 to go 2018 - 2 to go 2019 - 2 to go 2020 - 3 to go 2021 - last race (Max - probably) I think you can say of the three eras Schumacher tended to have more 'dormie' races on average, and because there were fewer races that was proportionally even earlier. I should have included '99 final round loss in his stats given I included '16 & '21 in Hamilton's though. |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 13:12:09 GMT
Really puts the length of Mercedes' dominance into persepective there. Hamilton could have conceivably won more World championships in a row than anyone else has in their career in the history of the entire sport. It's been an unprecedented juggernaut of an era from them.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 13:15:19 GMT
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 13:36:09 GMT
www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-race-director-masi-explains-norris-f1-eifel-gp-safety-car-decision-4978255/4978255/Well, well, well. Wellity, wellity, wellity... Masi said that was the only reason for the length of the safety car. "That one was the fact that we had to, there's a requirement in the sporting regulations, to wave all lapped cars past," Masi said. "I think from that point, it was position 6 onwards that was still running. "So 10, 11 cars, that had to unlap themselves, and therefore the safety car period was a bit longer than what we would have normally expected."
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JYM60
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Post by JYM60 on Dec 13, 2021 13:36:42 GMT
The races to go is pretty stupid anyway.
3 races to go. So that means Vettel/Lewis would have had to DNF all 3 and the next closest competitor win all 3? Like, basically impossible, and felt like the season was over way before that.
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Post by oldskooldeano on Dec 13, 2021 13:42:48 GMT
www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-race-director-masi-explains-norris-f1-eifel-gp-safety-car-decision-4978255/4978255/Well, well, well. Wellity, wellity, wellity... Masi said that was the only reason for the length of the safety car. "That one was the fact that we had to, there's a requirement in the sporting regulations, to wave all lapped cars past," Masi said. "I think from that point, it was position 6 onwards that was still running. "So 10, 11 cars, that had to unlap themselves, and therefore the safety car period was a bit longer than what we would have normally expected." That’s pretty much bang to rights ain’t it? Talk yourself out of that FIA |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 13:45:28 GMT
The races to go is pretty stupid anyway. 3 races to go. So that means Vettel/Lewis would have had to DNF all 3 and the next closest competitor win all 3? Like, basically impossible, and felt like the season was over way before that. I thought it was your idea as a metric of dominance? |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 13:49:40 GMT
www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-race-director-masi-explains-norris-f1-eifel-gp-safety-car-decision-4978255/4978255/Well, well, well. Wellity, wellity, wellity... Masi said that was the only reason for the length of the safety car. "That one was the fact that we had to, there's a requirement in the sporting regulations, to wave all lapped cars past," Masi said. "I think from that point, it was position 6 onwards that was still running. "So 10, 11 cars, that had to unlap themselves, and therefore the safety car period was a bit longer than what we would have normally expected." That’s pretty much bang to rights ain’t it? Talk yourself out of that FIA Unless there was a secret clarification shared with all the teams between then and now, that pretty much confirms Masi abandoned clear precedent and his own express clarification of that specific rule. |
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Post by JYM60 on Dec 13, 2021 13:54:14 GMT
The races to go is pretty stupid anyway. 3 races to go. So that means Vettel/Lewis would have had to DNF all 3 and the next closest competitor win all 3? Like, basically impossible, and felt like the season was over way before that. I thought it was your idea as a metric of dominance? Haha, true. But realistically it is more dominant than that makes it look. Anyway, F1, been no competition for a long time. Is it true that there's some rule change coming that will make it more competitive? |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 13:56:25 GMT
Next season. Although I increasingly get the feeling it might be more of the same if Merc find the balance between performance/reliability. What they managed to do between Brazil and the end of the season with that throwaway engine is fucking terrifying.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 14:03:29 GMT
That’s pretty much bang to rights ain’t it? Talk yourself out of that FIA Unless there was a secret clarification shared with all the teams between then and now, that pretty much confirms Masi abandoned clear precedent and his own express clarification of that specific rule. That's it though, isn't it, they'll just come out with reference to some vague discussion having taken place about how it's a shame when races finish under a safety car, and claim that that therefore overwrites all the actual rules written on paper. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 14:11:29 GMT
Unless there was a secret clarification shared with all the teams between then and now, that pretty much confirms Masi abandoned clear precedent and his own express clarification of that specific rule. That's it though, isn't it, they'll just come out with reference to some vague discussion having taken place about how it's a shame when races finish under a safety car, and claim that that therefore overwrites all the actual rules written on paper. Agreed, but a proper court wouldn't accept vague discussions as admissable would they? The FIA appeals court almost certainly will, but CAS? |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 14:22:20 GMT
You're probably going to be disappointed if you're looking for this to be overturned.
Seems like there are early rumblings of change anyway. Sounds like the Team > FIA radio during races is going to be done away with by the sounds of it.
I think they need 2 race directors IMO, one overlooking safety that has the power to override at any time in the name of putting health first, and one who takes care of the rules. Martin Brundle alluded to it after the race yesterday evening but Masi has far too much on his plate.
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 14:27:21 GMT
That's it though, isn't it, they'll just come out with reference to some vague discussion having taken place about how it's a shame when races finish under a safety car, and claim that that therefore overwrites all the actual rules written on paper. Agreed, but a proper court wouldn't accept vague discussions as admissable would they? The FIA appeals court almost certainly will, but CAS? Agree, but I separately wonder if the existing rulebook is so full of gaps in the way it's written that going off just the actual rules CAS would end up saying these rules are so woolly/gappy/circular that we can't really say that what happened in Abu Dhabi definitively broke them. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 14:29:30 GMT
You're probably going to be disappointed if you're looking for this to be overturned. Seems like there are early rumblings of change anyway. Sounds like the Team > FIA radio during races is going to be done away with by the sounds of it. I think they need 2 race directors IMO, one overlooking safety that has the power to override at any time in the name of putting health first, and one who takes care of the rules. Martin Brundle alluded to it after the race yesterday evening but Masi has far too much on his plate. It should be overturned but I'm certainly not expecting that. The best realistic outcome is the FIA to be embarrassed into making major changes to avoid a repeat and accepting that mistakes were made and they have to do better. Whoever ends up with this title gets the asterisk of being 'sort of' Champion now whatever happens so it pretty much doesn't matter. It's more about setting up the sport to be better in 2022 and beyond. The threat of CAS is potentially sufficient without needing to take it that far. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 14:30:55 GMT
Agreed, but a proper court wouldn't accept vague discussions as admissable would they? The FIA appeals court almost certainly will, but CAS? Agree, but I separately wonder if the existing rulebook is so full of gaps in the way it's written that going off just the actual rules CAS would end up saying these rules are so woolly/gappy/circular that we can't really say that what happened in Abu Dhabi definitively broke them. Even if Mercedes cite what happened in the preceding 10, 20, 50 safety car procedures as evidence? There are lots to choose from and none have ended like this one did. |
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 14:31:51 GMT
You're probably going to be disappointed if you're looking for this to be overturned. Yeah. I'm not even sure it's desirable. Masi's dreadful calls in that race not happening in the first place is what would have been desirable, but now that they've happened, the consequences are a guaranteed shitshow whether the race result stands or whether it is changed. It's not like if they overturned the race result everything would all be hunky dory. |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 14:37:15 GMT
I think it would go to the ICA under the FIA. But I don't think it will go that far tbh, will probably be quietly dropped after the going through the FIA appeal process and they come back next year with an axe to grind out on the track.
As stated just above I agree there's probably too much wiggle room in the rulebook for this to go anywhere really, and if anything comes of this it should be to finally solidify that side of things to a permanent end.
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Post by sport✅ on Dec 13, 2021 14:41:48 GMT
If this goes to court I'll scrap my Mercedes and get a Civic, no jokes.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 14:46:45 GMT
You're probably going to be disappointed if you're looking for this to be overturned. Yeah. I'm not even sure it's desirable. Masi's dreadful calls in that race not happening in the first place is what would have been desirable, but now that they've happened, the consequences are a guaranteed shitshow whether the race result stands or whether it is changed. It's not like if they overturned the race result everything would all be hunky dory. Yep, the lesser of two evils will be to use this as a catalyst for permanent change. Red Bull, like them or hate them simply threw the dice at an opportunity that presented itself so to strip them of that would open another can of worms for them to contend with. For all the conspiracy theories and accusations of rigging etc that have flown about, I think Occam's Razor applies here and we've simply seen the human side of trying to navigate through a specific set of circumstances we will likely never see again in our lifetimes. Masi quite rightfully takes shit at times, and I'd look things like Belgium and leaving Baku running as to what he needs to desperately improve upon. But fucking hell, I couldn't envy what he had to try and get through yesterday in those final laps any less if I tried. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 14:52:38 GMT
Yeah. I'm not even sure it's desirable. Masi's dreadful calls in that race not happening in the first place is what would have been desirable, but now that they've happened, the consequences are a guaranteed shitshow whether the race result stands or whether it is changed. It's not like if they overturned the race result everything would all be hunky dory. Yep, the lesser of two evils will be to use this as a catalyst for permanent change. Red Bull, like them or hate them simply threw the dice at an opportunity that presented itself so to strip them of that would open another can of worms for them to contend with. For all the conspiracy theories and accusations of rigging etc that have flown about, I think Occam's Razor applies here and we've simply seen the human side of trying to navigate through a specific set of circumstances we will likely never see again in our lifetimes. Masi quite rightfully takes shit at times, and I'd look things like Belgium and leaving Baku running as to what he needs to desperately improve upon. But fucking hell, I couldn't envy what he had to try and get through yesterday in those final laps any less if I tried. If only Masi had applied Occam's Razor we wouldn't be in this position. The bare minimum is that he has to be replaced. |
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 14:55:20 GMT
Exactly - he's got in a bit of a flap about the race ending under a safety car (which would actually have not been remotely a big deal), and overthought it / tried too hard rather than just running the usual process and leaving the outcome to be whatever it is.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 14:59:12 GMT
I'd actually argue he needs to be helped. Total change will only throw us into this chaos again when it all builds to a head once more. It's very obvious at this point that what he's doing isn't a one-man job so split it up using his experience to saddle one or two more people with some of the burden, maybe moving him on to a consultancy role if you don't want his name being directly involved, tighten up on just how much of an arbiter a race director is on events and try and go from there.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 15:05:49 GMT
Exactly - he's got in a bit of a flap about the race ending under a safety car (which would actually have not been remotely a big deal), and overthought it / tried too hard rather than just running the usual process and leaving the outcome to be whatever it is. I guess this is another one of the things to be investigated as the TV broadcast certainly made it look like the chronology was: 1) Masi started going by the book and based on the number of laps left, sensibly decided there wasn't time for unlapped runners to go past and get back to racing. This message went out to everyone. 2) Then Horner called through and said 'get the lapped cars out the way' and 'we just need one lap'. Instead of telling him to piss off, Masi sounded very flustered and told him to wait, he'll get to it. 3) A new message was suddenly sent for only the cars between P1 and P2 to unlap themselves (which wasn't on the table until he just did it) then moments later, 'safety car in this lap' which was also incorrect procedure as it was one too early. I'm well aware Mercedes are just as bad but on this occasion it really looked like Horner successfully pressured him into deviating from protocol on two fronts. Whoever replaces Masi has to be protected from this kind of thing. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 15:34:21 GMT
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 13, 2021 15:59:26 GMT
Veto powers with the new boss.
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Post by Flying Pig on Dec 13, 2021 16:02:02 GMT
Yesterday's race was the only race this season I've watched live (the remainder were C4 highlights, as I'm too tight to pay for Sky). For 99% of it, the race was fantastic and I was literally on edge for the whole thing - right up until the end/Latifi's safety car.
While I would have rather Hamilton won his 8th title, I'd have accepted a Verstappen win had he been genuinely ahead/faster in the race. However, the mess of the whole safety car in the final 5 laps, essentially gifting the championship to Max has left me feeling incredibly disappointed and unsatisfied with the outcome.
For me, being 10+ seconds ahead with 5 laps to go, Hamilton had earned the win. Even Cristian Horner admitted Mercedes were too strong that date and Red Bull needed a miracle to get past him.
The rights and wrongs of Masi's decision making has been well debated here. And as disappointed as I am to see Mercedes take it to the stewards and onto the CAS, I don't see this as them being 'sore losers' in the case of poor strategy or bad luck, I see this as them seeking to remedy the injustice of the result and uncertainly it creates for future races/seasons. That said, no matter the outcome of the court proceedings, there's no way that the remedy can be to strip Max of his title. Both drivers are (IMO) faultless in this and have both lost out to different degrees. I've not been scouring the media today, but I've not seen any comment from either driver on this, which I think is a good thing. The way both drivers (Hamilton in particular) conducted themselves post race was exemplary and they've rightly stayed out of the politics.
Max will celebrate his deserved championship (taking the whole season into account) and Hamilton will (hopefully) come back stronger and more determined next year.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 16:05:32 GMT
There are a few bits coming out that they are likely to drop it and have quietly congratulated Max and Red Bull, which is sensible. The likelihood of anything happening would be close to zero and I'm sure optics wise, Lewis wouldn't want to try and win his 8th in the courtroom anyway.
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