sport✅
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Post by sport✅ on Dec 13, 2021 10:59:43 GMT
Red bull?? more like Red Bud Light!!
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 10:59:51 GMT
The claim that "any" does not mean the same as "all" in the sentence “any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car” is gibberish - it seems impossible to see how an independent lawyer could judge otherwise. Exactly. Hypothetically, even if "any" could be considered synonymous with "some" rather than "all", "the following lap" can never be interpreted as "immediately". There's no room for ambiguity there, so when the last car that was allowed to unlap itself passed the safety car (lap 57) the SC should not have come in until the next one (lap 58). The stewards also don't get to randomly decide which clauses supersede others, that seemed like a desperate attempt to find something, anything, in the text they could hang the rejection on for the media so they could get out of there and go home. The FIA lawyers may find a stronger justification given more time but they will need to. On a re-read, actually if it does get to lawyers, the any/all thing may be irrelevant, as the full text of that regulation is "If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message 'lapped cars may now overtake' has been sent to all competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car."
Given that the message "lapped cars may now overtake" was not sent to all competitors, the rest of the clause is irrelevant... Clearly the implication is that it should be that message or nothing, but technically it doesn't specify what happens if the race director makes up a new message on the spot...
Similar situation with the other one about the safety car waiting a lap before coming in - the rules say it should come in "the following lap", and also that it should be when the "safety car in" message is shown - they don't really envisage a situation where the race director does the latter without the former having happened.
Basically there's two different ways in which Masi has done something the rules don't neatly cover... Given that, the vague bit of wording about the race director being in charge may win out. It really needs some better checks and balances though.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 13, 2021 11:09:06 GMT
The funny part is that it wouldn't really have taken significantly longer to have all the lapped cars go past. They still could have got a racing lap in. I always thought they had to let them form back up again... which obviously would have been a different story.
Sad way to end the season.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 11:15:12 GMT
I've always felt as though lapped cars should be overtaken when sent to the back of the queue tbh, rather than the other way around being able to unlap themselves. Certainly now in an age of on board displays and better radio where the logistics of doing it are far easier. Safety cars have always been inherently flawed in the way they are to the detriment of the lead car unless you are blessed with literally being right outside the pit entry when it gets thrown.
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JYM60
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Post by JYM60 on Dec 13, 2021 11:15:26 GMT
I stopped watching F1 around the time of the Vettel dominance. Just barely felt like a 'sport' to me. One car just lightyears ahead of the rest, little to do with ability, pretty much from then to possibly now (2 decent cars woop woop). No point watching that to me. Doesn't help when the lottery winner of far superior car is a bit of an arrogant prick.
Sounds like the whole show is a complete clown fiesta these days, so will stay away I reckon.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 11:20:50 GMT
I've always felt as though lapped cars should be overtaken when sent to the back of the queue tbh, rather than the other way around being able to unlap themselves. Certainly now in an age of on board displays and better radio where the logistics of doing it are far easier. Safety cars have always been inherently flawed in the way they are to the detriment of the lead car unless you are blessed with literally being right outside the pit entry when it gets thrown. Apparently the reason they don't is because it creates unfairness in things like fuel usage and tyre wear if you get cars that are classified as having completed a lap that they haven't physically driven.
There's no sporting reason for cars unlapping themselves anyway. People already unfairly lose out the gaps they've built up when a safety car comes out - if anything, any back-markers that happen to be in the way help mitigate that.
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Post by brokenkey on Dec 13, 2021 11:31:06 GMT
The FIA need to discover that Lewis car was short on fuel, then all this nastiness can go away.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 11:36:11 GMT
Same as being able to unlap yourself under red flags for me really. A lap down should be a lap down. Imola was a pretty huge swing in the championship because of that. There are so many inherent inconsistencies in the sport that go against 'fair' that it's really hard to look at just one when it's a shitty house of cards to begin with. Even their push to be at the forefront of sustainable technology gets chucked in the bin when it's convenient to throw in a power unit specifically designed to have a shorter shelf life for temporary gain and receive a lesser penalty for it than the first time you did it.
But it does something to keep me coming back for more. It's a really bizarre sport to follow when you think about it.
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Post by snackplissken on Dec 13, 2021 11:42:00 GMT
I wouldn't even know where to start with watching wrestling these days but the idea of a ladder match between Horner and Toto for the world championship screams money to me. Maybe they can do this?
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 11:46:27 GMT
Clear safety car situation there.
But seriously, what the fuck? That man is on fire.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 11:47:49 GMT
and I hope whoever green lit using a laminated table is as in danger of losing their job as Masi is.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 13, 2021 12:04:27 GMT
I stopped watching F1 around the time of the Vettel dominance. Just barely felt like a 'sport' to me. One car just lightyears ahead of the rest, little to do with ability, pretty much from then to possibly now (2 decent cars woop woop). No point watching that to me. Doesn't help when the lottery winner of far superior car is a bit of an arrogant prick. You got probably out at the right time. For many of the last 8 years the Merc dominance over other cars has made the Redbull seasons look almost competitive by comparison.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:08:35 GMT
Same as being able to unlap yourself under red flags for me really. A lap down should be a lap down. Imola was a pretty huge swing in the championship because of that. There are so many inherent inconsistencies in the sport that go against 'fair' that it's really hard to look at just one when it's a shitty house of cards to begin with. Even their push to be at the forefront of sustainable technology gets chucked in the bin when it's convenient to throw in a power unit specifically designed to have a shorter shelf life for temporary gain and receive a lesser penalty for it than the first time you did it. But it does something to keep me coming back for more. It's a really bizarre sport to follow when you think about it. Imola was a bad rule being applied correctly. At least everyone knew where they stood (or could have if they'd read the rules). I agree that rule should be changed along with a bunch of others that have been raised as unfair this season. Abu Dhabi was actually very sensible rules (to ensure fairness around the use of SCs) not being applied correctly. The two don't cancel themselves out and are separate problems to deal with. However the Abu Dhabi scenario was far worse because what's the point in fixing the broken rules if we can't trust the race director and stewards to apply new ones in good faith?
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 12:09:53 GMT
Although there were a couple of years where Vettel had easily a good enough car to challenge Hamilton, and a couple of years when Hamilton/Rosberg went at each other within Mercedes. The Mercedes era has not lacked spectacle the way that the Schumi/Ferrari years did for instance.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:14:01 GMT
I've always felt as though lapped cars should be overtaken when sent to the back of the queue tbh, rather than the other way around being able to unlap themselves. Certainly now in an age of on board displays and better radio where the logistics of doing it are far easier. Safety cars have always been inherently flawed in the way they are to the detriment of the lead car unless you are blessed with literally being right outside the pit entry when it gets thrown. Apparently the reason they don't is because it creates unfairness in things like fuel usage and tyre wear if you get cars that are classified as having completed a lap that they haven't physically driven.
There's no sporting reason for cars unlapping themselves anyway. People already unfairly lose out the gaps they've built up when a safety car comes out - if anything, any back-markers that happen to be in the way help mitigate that. Tend to agree and it didn't used to happen. However I don't feel that strongly either way, and would be happy for the best of the two options to remain at the race directors discretion (but not the unfair hybrid we had yesterday). There's no obvious fair solution better than VSCs anyway, but VSCs aren't safe enough for some scenarios. Le Mans obviously has two safety cars to ensure people don't lose a full lap due arbitrary safety car timing. I guess F1 could look at that as well.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 13, 2021 12:14:13 GMT
The Mercedes era has not lacked spectacle the way that the Schumi/Ferrari years did for instance. Although at least in those days you'd have reliability issues all over the place making some races a bit more unpredictable.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 12:18:11 GMT
I mean you only have to go back one solitary Grand Prix and see the race director deciding to play Deal or No Deal in the middle of a race over grid positions to see the shark was jumped an awfully long time ago. I dare say that is only the tip of the iceberg too, what with Team>FIA radio only being around very recently.
It's always struck me as a sport that has extremely subjective rule application compared to others. Maybe one day it won't, who knows. So yesterday comes as no surprise to me.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:27:32 GMT
The Mercedes era has not lacked spectacle the way that the Schumi/Ferrari years did for instance. Although at least in those days you'd have reliability issues all over the place making some races a bit more unpredictable. Quickly looked into this as first thought was that the Ferrari of that era basically redefined reliablity in modern F1. Indeed Ferrari (or Schumachers at least) was relatively bullet proof. Between 2001-2004 he had four retirements in 68 races. Of those only one was actually a mechanical failure (Imola 2001) and even that was probably due to him hitting a curb too hard.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Dec 13, 2021 12:30:03 GMT
Yup, Somebody sneezes in NASCAR or CART racing and its yellow to bunch up the field.
Like it or not its the way it will go increasingly, no amount of old men shaking their fists at the clouds will change it
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:30:41 GMT
I mean you only have to go back one solitary Grand Prix and see the race director deciding to play Deal or No Deal in the middle of a race over grid positions to see the shark was jumped an awfully long time ago. I dare say that is only the tip of the iceberg too, what with Team>FIA radio only being around very recently. It's always struck me as a sport that has extremely subjective rule application compared to others. Maybe one day it won't, who knows. So yesterday comes as no surprise to me. I'm sure it happened when Charlie was RD as well. After all the whole sport was effectively run by a used car dealer with a Napoleon complex. There's always been cases of very dubious and controversial interpretations of the rules at times, but a) the sport is supposedly more professional now b) I can't recall the RD just totally ignoring the written rules in the way Masi did, and certainly not as such a crucial moment.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 13, 2021 12:31:05 GMT
Quickly looked into this as first thought was that the Ferrari of that era basically redefined reliablity in modern F1. Indeed Ferrari (or Schumachers at least) was relatively bullet proof. Between 2001-2004 he had four retirements in 68 races. Of those only one was actually a mechanical failure (Imola 2001) and even that was probably due to him hitting a curb too hard. Fair enough, I remember a lot of issues, but I guess just not at the top.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 12:31:22 GMT
I remember his Japan 2006 engine blowout being highlighted as his first in over half a decade. It always amazes me how some of the best drivers ever also had a golden horseshoe up their arse.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Dec 13, 2021 12:35:32 GMT
I mean you only have to go back one solitary Grand Prix and see the race director deciding to play Deal or No Deal in the middle of a race over grid positions to see the shark was jumped an awfully long time ago. I dare say that is only the tip of the iceberg too, what with Team>FIA radio only being around very recently. It's always struck me as a sport that has extremely subjective rule application compared to others. Maybe one day it won't, who knows. So yesterday comes as no surprise to me. I'm sure it happened when Charlie was RD as well. After all the whole sport was effectively run by a used car dealer with a Napoleon complex. There's always been cases of very dubious and controversial interpretations of the rules at times, but a) the sport is supposedly more professional now b) I can't recall the RD just totally ignoring the written rules in the way Masi did, and certainly not as such a crucial moment. The whole incident, where he was offering a deal to RB was so weird and wrong. Fuck the teams off the radio, like it or lump it, tail is wagging the dog, its mental
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Post by snackplissken on Dec 13, 2021 12:36:51 GMT
Interesting to see what Prost/Senna would have been like if social media was about.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 12:42:06 GMT
Those radio messages being broadcast this season only highlight that not only should they not be in the public domain, they shouldn't happen during a race full stop.
They need to employ the football manager 'sent to the stands for a game' method of dealing with that shit and see how they like it then. Sure, Masi probably isn't as strong willed as he should be (although "We went car racing" is probably my favourite comeback of all time now), but there's simply no excuse for allowing team principals the ability to attempt to manipulate proceedings as much as they are.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:42:14 GMT
Yup, Somebody sneezes in NASCAR or CART racing and its yellow to bunch up the field. Like it or not its the way it will go increasingly, no amount of old men shaking their fists at the clouds will change it With a full appreciation of the fact that at 37, I'm the firmly the old man shaking my first whilst the sport pivots towards the teenagers who vote in driver of the day and follow their favourite drivers on instagram, but how many manufacturers do you see in NASCAR and CART? The big, historic car manufacturers don't like gambling their money on entertainment masquerading as sport. They like clarity and as much certainty as possible that they'll get their return on investment if they produce the best car. Boring stuff like transparent regulation, a fair arbitration processes and means for redress will matter to them. Otherwise they'll walk away and focus on alternatives like Le Mans and FE. Maybe even break away from the FIA and set up a rival series. I've been saying for ages that F1 shouldn't be afraid to get rid of the manufacturers and go back to a bunch of privateers with customer engines, like the Cosworth era. Maybe I was totally wrong and actually the manufacturers themselves are an important source of checks and balances.
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JYM60
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Post by JYM60 on Dec 13, 2021 12:44:15 GMT
Although there were a couple of years where Vettel had easily a good enough car to challenge Hamilton, and a couple of years when Hamilton/Rosberg went at each other within Mercedes. The Mercedes era has not lacked spectacle the way that the Schumi/Ferrari years did for instance. I think Shumi only had one season were he won with a ridiculous amount of races still to race. The rest are on about a par with how early Vettel and Lewis sometimes won with races remaining. But the whole point system did change meaning a lot more points are available each race. Otherwise Vettel/Lewis would probably have won far earlier in the season, I think?
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 13, 2021 12:48:22 GMT
Ferarri did have a few totally dominant seasons. But you also had 2000, where Hakkinen pushed him all the way and 2003, where Raikkonen would have won the title if not for an engine blowout in the lead at the Nurburgring which I'm definitely not still salty about 18 years later.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 12:50:52 GMT
I don't actually think the "offer" situation in Saudi was inherently problematic, so much as it was presented/communicated awfully.
In a race, Masi might come on the radio saying "give that place back" after an illegal overtake, and then if they don't, it goes to the stewards to apply a time penalty. And that's all that was happening - it was just weird to word it as an "offer".
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 12:51:18 GMT
Although there were a couple of years where Vettel had easily a good enough car to challenge Hamilton, and a couple of years when Hamilton/Rosberg went at each other within Mercedes. The Mercedes era has not lacked spectacle the way that the Schumi/Ferrari years did for instance. I think Shumi only had one season were he won with a ridiculous amount of races still to race. The rest are on about a par with how early Vettel and Lewis sometimes won with races remaining. But the whole point system did change meaning a lot more points are available each race. Otherwise Vettel/Lewis would probably have won far earlier in the season, I think? 2000 - 1 race to go 2001 - 4 races to go 2002 - 6 races to go 2003 - last race 2004 - 4 races to go I'd say pretty similar to Merc era.
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