111
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Post by 111 on Dec 12, 2021 19:54:40 GMT
Logically speaking, it does make sense that the "SC in" message overrides any further movement of the field. That's entirely circular logic, no? Like a footballer getting sent off erroneously and the appeal verdict being "it's true that you didn't do anything illegal, but we're not removing your ban because that is overridden by the referee having shown you a red card". |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 12, 2021 20:09:37 GMT
I don't think any of these football analogies work. Like I say, I would have handled it a different way but I'm also just a cunt on an armchair typing words onto the internet. I don't envy having to make those decisions that were made today.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 12, 2021 20:11:05 GMT
Not that Le Mans is perfect but in that race you hear the race director dictating to all the teams simultaneously the same directions without any backchat.
I'd do away with any radio mechanism for the teams to badger the race director or stewards unless there is a clear safety issue.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 12, 2021 20:13:49 GMT
It doesn't need the football analogy - my point was just that if people are questioning when the race director called the safety car in, the response being "well it came after the SC in message" is somewhat missing the point when the race director is the one that puts that message out.
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Post by snackplissken on Dec 12, 2021 20:15:41 GMT
If you’re that upset about today then you should probably stop watching F1. This is exactly what the owners want. They’ve got F1 in the headlines whether you agree or disagree with the decision and people will come back to see Max beaten next season.
Like I said the other day. It’s turning into WWE.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 12, 2021 20:19:04 GMT
Oh, whilst I remember... I want to re-iterate that IMHO Wolff is scum.
I don't care how much you want your guy to win, contacting the race director to say that there shouldn't be a VSC when there is a car in a dangerous position / marshals on the track is about as low as it goes.
How quickly we forget Jules Bianchi.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 12, 2021 20:21:53 GMT
Yes, effectively they couldn't refute Mercedes claims so they deflected.
It's just quite sad. Personally I think justice and setting the right precedent for the long term is more important than feelings and embarrassment.
However it's rubbish that Massi robbed Hamilton of what would have been a well deserved 8th title having driven superbly. It's equally poor that Max's first title has been tarnished. He's ruined it for everyone totally unnecessarily.
Max was also denied the option to win it in a noncontroversial way. Not out of the question he may have won a red flag sprint or a one lap race if the lapped cars jumped out the way on the back straight.
Now that is ruined, may as well get it properly resolved in court. This is on Massi not Mercedes or Red Bull who both actually acted in good faith for once.
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Post by TheSaint on Dec 12, 2021 20:25:04 GMT
Oh, whilst I remember... I want to re-iterate that IMHO Wolff is scum. I don't care how much you want your guy to win, contacting the race director to say that there shouldn't be a VSC when there is a car in a dangerous position / marshals on the track is about as low as it goes. How quickly we forget Jules Bianchi. If I remember correctly he was suggesting a VSC was sufficient and that a full safety car wasn’t necessary. |
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Dec 12, 2021 20:26:10 GMT
Yeah, that’s what I thought he was saying too.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 12, 2021 20:26:39 GMT
If I remember correctly he was suggesting a VSC was sufficient and that a full safety car wasn’t necessary. That wasn't what I heard at the time, but I can accept that I might have been wrong. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 12, 2021 20:27:47 GMT
If you’re that upset about today then you should probably stop watching F1. This is exactly what the owners want. They’ve got F1 in the headlines whether you agree or disagree with the decision and people will come back to see Max beaten next season. Like I said the other day. It’s turning into WWE. Yes this why the way this season and especially today really upsets me. Feels like the sport is being taken away from its long standing fans and becoming something different altogether. The TV show now matters more than a fair fight. Max is the poster child for this and I don't want 20 guys racing like Max with random interventions from stewards to favour the guy behind in the Championship. It's becoming like Mario Kart with rubber banding AI. It's still fixable but it seems like it's going in the wrong direction. I'll be back for more and give it every chance but there are limits. |
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 12, 2021 20:35:13 GMT
We heard Toto asking for not a "safety car", after the point at which Max had already pitted under VSC, which I read as being a request not to bunch them all back up for the show giving Max his already cheap new tires for free.
Admittedly we don't know exactly when the radio message actually happened, so that may not have been the actual timing, but we definitely don't know that he was asking for no SC/VSC at all at the point the incident originally happened, so jumping straight to yelling scum seems a little premature.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 12, 2021 20:45:28 GMT
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 12, 2021 20:46:11 GMT
As I said, happy to accept I could be wrong. At the time I took "safety car" to include the virtual sort (with the normal delay in comms).
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 12, 2021 20:49:30 GMT
I think it's fair to say these Team>FIA radio messages are doing the sport absolutely no favours. There's a layer of dirty laundry we simply don't need to hear as fans, I feel.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 12, 2021 20:50:23 GMT
As I said, happy to accept I could be wrong. At the time I took "safety car" to include the virtual sort (with the normal delay in comms). Me too, but I also thought he needs to shut up and not put further pressure on Massi. Same as Christian 'we just need one lap'. It's not right and probably contributed to his mistake. |
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X201
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Post by X201 on Dec 12, 2021 21:13:25 GMT
Mercedes have lodged their intention to appeal the decision of the stewards to dismiss the team's protest.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 12, 2021 22:24:52 GMT
An odd dynamic with modern F1 teams appealing things through the courts when a lot of people find that a turn-off (even if you're in the right) is that most of them - and certainly both Red Bull and Mercedes - are essentially only in the sport as a marketing exercise for their parent companies' core products anyway.
There's no point pursuing victory in an unpopular way if victory was only ever being pursued as a means to popularity in the first place, rather than victory being an end in itself.
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Post by damagedinc on Dec 12, 2021 22:34:52 GMT
Courts never a good way to go but I think merc have a real axe to grind here. How can you compete within regulations that can be interpreted so losely.
F1 made it clear that all they wanted was entertainment at a cost of sporting integrity for some time.
Safety cars/red flags etc are all things that happen. Lewis benefited in imola. However today was not that. It was engineered for a false 1 lap finish at a cost of the regulations that are normally so arbitrary.
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Dec 12, 2021 23:11:31 GMT
This season had me thinking that I should start watching F1 again... then it ends as a circus. Christ.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 0:20:08 GMT
Mercedes can legitimately spin their appeal into a positive with careful PR.
This isn't one if those really hard to understand technical cases or even a nasty contractual dispute.
The wording around the safety car procedure is surprisingly unambiguous for F1 rules. The stewards rejecting the appeal was effectively procedural, they aren't going to undermine the race director at the event. I don't see how their claims around which rules take precedent stack up. This isn't how they read as written but their interpretation doesn't get stress tested at this stage anyway so it's somewhat irrelevant.
It didn't really matter how water tight Mercedes case was today, it wasn't a proper court. CAS is and it's a different ball game. I suspect the FIA will know this and be desperate to avoid it going that far. Question is what will they offer and will it be carrot or stick. Moseley loved the stick (and the News of the World got the pics to prove it) but what will Todt do on his way out the door?
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 0:34:44 GMT
An odd dynamic with modern F1 teams appealing things through the courts when a lot of people find that a turn-off (even if you're in the right) is that most of them - and certainly both Red Bull and Mercedes - are essentially only in the sport as a marketing exercise for their parent companies' core products anyway. There's no point pursuing victory in an unpopular way if victory was only ever being pursued as a means to popularity in the first place, rather than victory being an end in itself. Don't forget Mercedes F1 aren't wholly owned by Daimler-Benz anymore. Isn't it a three way split with Toto and Ineos? Also thought Hamilton had equity in his latest deal. Promoting Mercedes is clearly a key consideration but they are a proper race team who exist to race and win rather than sell cars. Toto and Ineos may be able to dictate what happens next without approval of DB. |
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Post by Danno on Dec 13, 2021 0:39:09 GMT
Get Blue Shells in next season or bollocks to it
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Post by damagedinc on Dec 13, 2021 0:41:07 GMT
Mercedes can legitimately spin their appeal into a positive with careful PR. This isn't one if those really hard to understand technical cases or even a nasty contractual dispute. The wording around the safety car procedure is surprisingly unambiguous for F1 rules. The stewards rejecting the appeal was effectively procedural, they aren't going to undermine the race director at the event. I don't see how their claims around which rules take precedent stack up. This isn't how they read as written but their interpretation doesn't get stress tested at this stage anyway so it's somewhat irrelevant. It didn't really matter how water tight Mercedes case was today, it wasn't a proper court. CAS is and it's a different ball game. I suspect the FIA will know this and be desperate to avoid it going that far. Question is what will they offer and will it be carrot or stick. Moseley loved the stick (and the News of the World got the pics to prove it) but what will Todt do on his way out the door? In terms of Carrot or the stick merc hold all the cards. F1 needs manufacturers and merc could threaten to go nuclear and pull out. Which also fucks over the supplied teams. |
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 6:37:29 GMT
Don't forget Mercedes F1 aren't wholly owned by Daimler-Benz anymore. Isn't it a three way split with Toto and Ineos? Good point - I'd forgotten that despite continuing to race as "Mercedes", Mercedes aren't actually a majority shareholder any more. Not sure what Ineos's motivations are to be honest. |
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Post by Dougs on Dec 13, 2021 6:55:22 GMT
This season had me thinking that I should start watching F1 again... then it ends as a circus. Christ. Same here. Have ignored it for years but was drawn back in this year. Very disappointing and even as a layman, can see how manufactured it was. |
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 6:58:42 GMT
Mercedes can legitimately spin their appeal into a positive with careful PR. This isn't one if those really hard to understand technical cases or even a nasty contractual dispute. I dunno - sure people don't understand the technical minutiae when some sub-part of an engine is protested, but the concept of protesting there being something illegal about your competitor's car is arguably less fiddly to understand as a casual viewer than people talking about safety car restart procedures not having been followed properly. It looks ridiculous and egregious to us, but all a lot of people have seen is a safety car (legitimately, albeit unluckily for Merc) come out, the crash get cleared up, and the safety car go back in. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 13, 2021 7:45:10 GMT
the-race.com/formula-1/the-questionable-fia-logic-a-mercedes-appeal-may-target/Decent break down as to why the FIAs logic is flawed if anyone needs a one page explainer. I'm very confident Mercedes will win at CAS, I'm just not sure what redress they are likely to be awarded. That's the only reason it might be better for them to settle before it gets that far. The FIA is in hot water though. I don't think they can bully Mercedes given they supply nearly half the grid so will surely have to appease them in some way. I guess it depends whether Merc will accept anything in lieu of the drivers title.
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Wizzard_Ook
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Post by Wizzard_Ook on Dec 13, 2021 7:50:32 GMT
I’m still in disbelief in what happened yesterday. I don’t think I’ve seen such near universal disbelief/anger at a sporting incident in such a long time. It actually feels a little bit like when Barrichello pulled over to let Schumi past or the Alonso/massa team order incident. People may have their favourite teams or drivers but I think generally fans have been on the same page when it comes down to the integrity of the sport and when that is broken it shows.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 13, 2021 7:59:52 GMT
The claim that "any" does not mean the same as "all" in the sentence “any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car” is gibberish - it seems impossible to see how an independent lawyer could judge otherwise.
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