Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 14:57:19 GMT
It's hardly "not a scandal" if they disqualify Verstappen from the championship though, is it? If Verstappen does exactly what he did in Brazil, but Hamilton doesn't dive out the way, there is no non-controversial route forward for the stewards/officials - it'll be a political/PR clusterfuck whatever action they take from that point because as you pointed out before they've made a rod for their own backs by not properly punishing these moves in the earlier races. It's much more of a scandal if he punts Hamilton off the track and gets a 10 second penalty or something daft and wins the title by default. I don't see any way they let it stew in the off season if there's even a hint of something deliberate.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Dec 6, 2021 14:58:27 GMT
Checo could take Hamilton out, if he ever got close enough
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Post by Phattso on Dec 6, 2021 15:03:38 GMT
He nearly took Verstappen out on Sunday.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 15:03:56 GMT
Maybe when he gets lapped.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 6, 2021 17:52:16 GMT
It's hardly "not a scandal" if they disqualify Verstappen from the championship though, is it? If Verstappen does exactly what he did in Brazil, but Hamilton doesn't dive out the way, there is no non-controversial route forward for the stewards/officials - it'll be a political/PR clusterfuck whatever action they take from that point because as you pointed out before they've made a rod for their own backs by not properly punishing these moves in the earlier races. It's much more of a scandal if he punts Hamilton off the track and gets a 10 second penalty or something daft and wins the title by default. I don't see any way they let it stew in the off season if there's even a hint of something deliberate. I agree they've made a rod for their own backs but there are ways out. First and foremost they have to decide what the action will be if there is reckless driving that results in contact between the Championship protagonists. Then communicate clearly to everyone what the situation is so we all know the score. Without FIA intervention I'd say we can be 99% certain that Max will choose doing all he can to encourage contact over letting Hamilton overtake him or finish just ahead of him. Even if Lewis manages to get a full car length ahead we know Max just won't brake. Hamilton's only hope for a clean race is to qualify in front, and hope Valtteri can act as a blocker to prevent Max spearing him into T1 or getting within range (which frankly could be 4 car lengths back) for a stupid lunge. No in race penalty is sufficient for Max taking Hamilton out as even a DQ would still mean he's Champion. This is where I agree there's a massive problem. The right thing to do would be to call them both in on Thursday night and directly address the elephant in the room. i.e. that the circumstances are unique at a title decider. Cite Schumacher '97 as a justification and explain that if any Red Bull or Mercedes driver is considered wholly to blame for recklessly or intentionally causing a collision with either driver from the other team, they'll be DQ'd from the WDC & also lose their points towards the WCC. Then remind them that you can't force another driver off the track whether you're attacking or defending. Do that and you have to give the position back immediately and remain behind for until you pass the start line twice or get a penalty. Brief the media that this is the situation so everyone is totally clear, then by all means 'let them race'. If the situation is that whoever causes contact automatically loses all their points in both Championships, I think we'd immediately have a much cleaner fight. Horner and Marko would have no choice but to ask Max to cool it because a DQ would mean they'd drop to fifth and lose out on $30m prize money. Unfortunately what'll almost certainly happen is the FIA will carry on giving ambiguous briefings to the press and drivers and hope for the best. Then make it up as they go along when an incident happens. Everyone goes home angry, entire sport in disrepute and another * title goes into the record books.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 7, 2021 10:09:38 GMT
Nice article on the 2008 Spa race I cited during the Saudi GP. I got the wrong Ferrari though, it was Kimi not Massa that Hamilton let back past and then immediately repassed before being penalised. Video here youtu.be/OISkvYS8ZVsWhat a fantastic race it was. Kind of ironic that this was Lewis and Kimi properly demonstrating what hard racing actually involves. The actual decision to give Hamilton a +25s post race penalty for such a minor offence seems no less corrupt now than it did 13 years ago. Not least because a) Mclaren asked Charlie twice if he needed to give the place back and were told no, b) Kimi tapped the back of Lewis then crashed on his own accord and c) Lewis in a slower car that day was clearly so much faster on slicks in the rain that it was obvious he could have passed him a lap later anyway. This was also one of the earliest examples of a driver 'forcing' another driver onto the tarmac runoff, because tarmac runoffs were still fairly new. By modern standards what Kimi did was absolutely fine, but in 2008 it was debatable, to say the least. Max Moseley really didn't want Ron winning any titles the year after his £100m fine. I don't think Lewis has been unfairly treated post-Moseley/Mclaren spat, but you can understand him having a lingering sense of paranoia from the way that season unfolded. The current stewarding, for all its flaws, is at least reasonably impartial without Ecclestone and Moseley advancing their personal agendas. +25s for what is now a +5s time penalty! Imagine if Max had received +25s or a drive-through every time he left the track and gained an advantage or failed to lose a position by exiting the track. That would stop it.
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myk
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Post by myk on Dec 7, 2021 10:20:35 GMT
For me time penalties don't make any sense any more. Should be position drops that can accumulate and last into the next race if not used. 5 sec becomes a one place drop, 10 sec two places and so on, applied at the end of the race
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 7, 2021 10:43:25 GMT
It's another inconsistent thing. All season the big decisions seem to have been time penalty in-race, or grid drop after the race. Now it's time penalty after the race?
It just all needs to modernise, simple as that. The stewarding has an unquestionable stench of 'jobs for the boys' to me. Get in 5 permanent, completely unaffiliated with anything to do with F1 past or present adjudicators, train them up on a solid foundation of rules and then have them do the entire season, travelling around under Masi working on a majority decision vote for potential infractions. Then have the penalties be consistent, rather than this ad-hoc, freewheeling bullshit they've got going on currently.
It's really not hard. It's just time, effort and money but there's no excuse for them not to have any of those things when lives are on the line and they are happy to accept blank cheques for races from every shady regime going.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 7, 2021 12:12:10 GMT
Just get Nigel back as the full-time chief steward: the-race.com/formula-1/why-alonso-needs-mansell-to-help-his-f1-rules-campaign/He's wise to cheating via track limit violations and has the planet-sized ego required to make decisions, own them, and call out the straw man arguments from the teams and drivers for what they are. Obviously, I'm being tongue in cheek but I do feel like the stewarding is lacking someone with the implicit authority derived from top-level success and someone who isn't remotely afraid to dress down the drivers and teams then front up to the media afterwards. Liuzzi was the driver steward on Sunday, hardly comparable force of character there. Massi doesn't have the authority and handles the media terribly. Nigel isn't the right man because he absolutely does bear a grudge, and some fans are already vexed about imagined 'British bias' that's hardly worth stoking. Need a former driver like Nigel who was similarly tough but fair, has implicit seniority, and won't give a toss about making unpopular decisions, but also isn't British and has no complicated history... Mika Hakkinen.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 7, 2021 12:23:56 GMT
Is that a penalty, Mika?
............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ........................ yes.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 7, 2021 12:29:02 GMT
It's another inconsistent thing. All season the big decisions seem to have been time penalty in-race, or grid drop after the race. Now it's time penalty after the race? Just on this point Kimi had a 30s penalty applied after the race in Imola for a safety car procedure infringement (in lieu of a 10s stop go), and a further 20s penalty in Austria for last lap contact with Vettel (in lieu of a drive through). Mazepin and Latifi also got 30s applied post race for failing to respect double waved yellows in Austria. The precedent for post race time penalties is there, especially for incidents near the end of the race but it's the fact they decided 10s rather than a drive through equivalent that seems most suspect to me. There's no legitimate reason for Max to suddenly apply the brakes that harshly when he's clearly checked his mirrors several times and knows Hamilton is somewhere immediately behind him. The intention is somewhat irrelevant anyway, he definitely did apply significant brake force, the telemetry shows this, and it's just ridiculously dangerous driving which at any other time would be somewhere between a stop go and a DQ. It's taboo and one of the cardinal sins of racing for very good reason - if you can't trust the car ahead not to erratically brake on you can't race with them. The stewards could still have given Max the benefit of the doubt and said "we don't think you were trying to make Lewis crash into you, but unfortunately you did brake dangerously" so it's +30s because that's how dangerous it could have been. Genuinely ridiculous that they effectively let it slide to level up the Championship.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 7, 2021 12:38:49 GMT
I think what stopped it being a much, much harsher penalty is that they both drove somewhat erratically because of the DRS activation point. Lewis even said after the race he was mindful of the upcoming activation line in his thinking when approaching. It was one of the most bizarre things I've seen in a long time.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 7, 2021 14:42:23 GMT
It was similar to his Baku incident with Vettel in so far as there was an element of cat and mouse to it. However the key difference is on that occasion the telemetry showed that the car in front hadn't erratically braked.
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Post by Psychotext on Dec 8, 2021 11:17:43 GMT
I've not been following things. Has the telemetry shown he braked now? I was initially under the impression it was just the usual regeneration stuff going on.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 8, 2021 12:09:11 GMT
Yes - from the official press release:
"In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration."
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 8, 2021 12:47:20 GMT
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 8, 2021 13:43:18 GMT
Nice to see Mercedes have seen sense and fucked off the Kingspan sponsorship.
I loved how the Daily Mail couldn't help but try and associate said sponsorship with Lewis Hamilton rather than his team at every possible opportunity over the weekend. I really do wonder what the reason for that was...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2021 14:34:09 GMT
It was a bit shit though. Kingspan provided only 5% of the cladding. And it was installed against their recomend procedures etc. They were one of the least blameless parties.
I have mates who have worked with them and they are really really fucked off internally how they are being scapegoated.
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Post by monkman5000 on Dec 8, 2021 14:35:48 GMT
Most blameless I guess you mean.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2021 14:37:31 GMT
Duh! Yeah!
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 8, 2021 14:41:53 GMT
Yes right result in the end and whoever does Mercedes PR crisis management has earned their cash. Admit fault, meet with victims, say sorry, make changes. Not actually that complicated, but does rely on a modicum of integrity and not immediately going defensive.
Compare and contrast with the UK government.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 8, 2021 14:46:27 GMT
They seem to be regarded as quite a shady company even outside the Grenfell stuff. Read quite a big write up a while ago about how they were knowingly selling their insulation as less flammable than it actually was.
Regardless of the proportion of blame, the optics were horrible for such a tiny piece of sponsor space, one British driver and another to come in next year. Really poor due dilligence from a team with so many resources.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 8, 2021 14:54:34 GMT
From what I read, the smoking gun for Kingspan was the inquiry finding emails that showed that the panels in question hadn't passed a required fire safety standard and Kingspan staff knew this and fraudulently used a test pass from a different product. There was also an intimation that they were very casual and jokey about doing this.
Could well have been the classic 'a few bad apples' but Kingspan are still accountable and it is insensitive to have their name proudly plastered on an F1 car.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 8, 2021 14:59:58 GMT
It's quite worrying when the deafult reaction is to be shocked something like this isn't being doubled down on and buried. A real-life dignified resolution, in the flesh. What a world we live in.
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Post by TheSaint on Dec 9, 2021 10:08:15 GMT
This is a good move:
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 9, 2021 10:13:38 GMT
Ahh that's brilliant.
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nazo
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Post by nazo on Dec 9, 2021 10:28:45 GMT
Hmm tricky decision, is there a way to get Sky's 4K picture but with with C4's commentary?
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 9, 2021 10:29:30 GMT
Good that they struck a deal. Paywalls tend to shut out younger fans and it is really short-sighted when sports sign up to them. Basically guarantees only children whose parents are fans can properly discover the sport. There are several sports I was interested in as a kid but basically never developed an attachment to because we didn't have Sky so I simply couldn't watch them.
Let's hope we actually get a decent race on Sunday, rather than another exhibition of bad driving and poor refereeing.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 9, 2021 10:33:06 GMT
Hmm tricky decision, is there a way to get Sky's 4K picture but with with C4's commentary? Ha. I really like the whole Sky team except Crofty. Even Rosberg and Di Resta have somewhat grown on me this year. Herbert's pretty bad, but I've got a soft spot for him because of his sheer grit and determination to carve out an F1 career with no real financial backing and two horrifically broken legs. He also somehow retained a good sense of humour throughout. A red button 'no crofty' feature will be ideal (in UHD).
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Post by TheSaint on Dec 9, 2021 10:33:14 GMT
Hmm tricky decision, is there a way to get Sky's 4K picture but with with C4's commentary? My reading of the article is that C4 will be showing it with Croft and Brundle.
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