111
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Post by 111 on Dec 5, 2021 23:43:43 GMT
So many odd rules.
If you're told to give a place back, just make it so that you have to stay behind for a sector or something so that you don't get that gaming the DRS to not really give it back nonsense.
Why on earth can you stick new tires on under a red flag?
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Post by Danno on Dec 5, 2021 23:48:14 GMT
Just seen Max's comments in the press conference. Either he genuinely does not understand where the line is or he's totally disingenuous. I'm worried it's the former and to some extent that's on the FIA. They've let him get away with so much and he's single handedly dragging driving standards into the gutter. Others are copying him. The failure to stamp out the aggressive stuff is coming home to roost and Massi and the stewards have lost control. Just in this race alone Max 1) left the track to gain an advantage 2) rejoined unsafely forcing Hamilton to brake and swerve to avoid a collision 3) ran Lewis fully off the road to maintain the lead (despite being entirely behind before the turn in) 4) tried to force Hamilton to pass him just before DRS to negate the penalty thereby creating circumstances for the collision 5) eventually let Hamilton by but then immediately repassed him, which isn't allowed (Massa/Ham Spa precedent). Hamilton isn't an angel and deserved a warning for running Max out wide himself. However I don't know how anyone is supposed to fairly race the bloke. He's consistently making erratic, crazy manoeuvres at high speed and the stewards let him get away with it 50% of the time. It needs to be 0% of the time to cut this shit out. I don't want post race penalties, but Max should be left under no illusions that if he takes Lewis out next race he be DQ'd from the Championship. Otherwise he will absolutely do it. I think "cheating shitheel" would cover it in any other sport |
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 5, 2021 23:53:28 GMT
Given the telemetry news that means Hamilton had to swerve to avoid crashing into Max four times in one race and still kept his cool and got the job done.
Outside the car he's a bit of an egomaniac, but inside the car he drives without ego.
I'm not sure there are many drivers of any era who could rise above Max's constant provocation. Senna would have been desperate to put Max in his place and would have driven himself mad trying to teach Max a lesson.
I suspect Lewis is past his absolute peak speed, approaching 38, but he's still the consumate professional racing driver.
I think I'll also gravitate to Russell next year, and whilst I suspect George will edge Lewis in qualifying, you can't underestimate Lewis's race craft.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 0:01:22 GMT
We all know Alfa have found a loophole and Bottas will win 15 races next season.
In reality I just desperately need another 12 months of: 😁 "I'm not involved in any of this shit".
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 6, 2021 0:14:42 GMT
We all know Alfa have found a loophole and Bottas will win 15 races next season. In reality I just desperately need another 12 months of: 😁 "I'm not involved in any of this shit". That would be fun. Valteri for the Championship (so long as he isn't required to overtake anyone or defend against a red bull). |
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Post by Red_Bool on Dec 6, 2021 7:55:00 GMT
I'm still trying to gather my thoughts on that race. Part of me wants to believe that the championship pressure is getting to Max. I'm firmly in the Max camp (I'm Dutch so...yeah), but ever since Monza he's regularly making it very hard. I mean, when he's brilliant he really is brilliant (Mexico), but then in races like this he can be a total bellend.
As long as he and Lewis are not going at it head-to-head everything seems fine (I don't see him pulling this shit with other drivers?), but each race it's like "I hope he doesn't screw up with Lewis". Indeed, visions of Schumacher/Hill come to mind and I really hope it won't get to that. The guy is too talented for this (but then again, so was Schumacher). Perhaps someone needs to talk some sense to him? (or keep him away from Marko and Jos)
In short I really want Max to become world champion, but only if he can do it fairly.
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Post by Red_Bool on Dec 6, 2021 8:32:55 GMT
Pen was dished out in the race so I wouldn't expect anything further. The crash was a highlight of how poor communication is between the stewards/teams. How they thought telling teams/drivers one at a time that the place should be given back on a high speed, narrow circuit was a good idea is beyond me. It would already have helped if they told Lewis first. |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 8:48:07 GMT
I do understand what he's doing and why he's doing it. He was fairly unlucky with a couple of bits and pieces earlier in the season and is now basically powerless to stop that Mercedes in its current spec and doesn't have enough margin to finish 2nd every race to bring it home.
But that doesn't mean he should do it. I'd have more respect if he just took it like a man. There's very little he can do about what's happening but sometimes those are the breaks (lol) in Formula One. Head high and come back next year and try again with experience in the bag.
As a huge Kimi fan (yes, I will use any opportunity to talk about my retiring hero), it's probably something I can relate to a little more having gone through the heartbreak a couple of times. People seem to confuse his popularity with his non-interviews, but it's more from the fact he had incredible pace in the early noughties but absolutely no luck to back it up. But instead of trying to claw it back by using his car as a weapon, he just accepted what was completely out of his control and took defeat in a dignified manner. Even if that manner manifested itself as a pissup on a yacht once in a while.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 6, 2021 9:03:40 GMT
I'm still trying to gather my thoughts on that race. Part of me wants to believe that the championship pressure is getting to Max. I'm firmly in the Max camp (I'm Dutch so...yeah), but ever since Monza he's regularly making it very hard. I mean, when he's brilliant he really is brilliant (Mexico), but then in races like this he can be a total bellend. As long as he and Lewis are not going at it head-to-head everything seems fine (I don't see him pulling this shit with other drivers?), but each race it's like "I hope he doesn't screw up with Lewis". Indeed, visions of Schumacher/Hill come to mind and I really hope it won't get to that. The guy is too talented for this (but then again, so was Schumacher). Perhaps someone needs to talk some sense to him? (or keep him away from Marko and Jos) In short I really want Max to become world champion, but only if he can do it fairly. Very reasonable, and it's interesting to get the view from another perspective, thanks. Max has an added element of desperation when it comes to Lewis that makes his moves even more extreme, but he has driven this way from day 1. Other drivers have also had issues with him, which is why his reputation isn't great and he's long been 'controversial'. Riccardo Baku and Leclerc Austria come to mind but I can quickly find more. Other drivers have learnt that they can't trust him to leave space in close quarters. He has brilliant car control and is as fast as anyone and it's great for another country to have their first front runner but the lack of respect for the etiquette of racing is why 'neutrals' who followed F1 pre-Max dislike him. Reading some of the comments from Max fans online, there frequently appears to be a misunderstanding of what fair racing is, which is logical if you'd only starting watching F1 because of Max and accepted his explanations as gospel. Nice to have a reminder that there must be many rational Max supporters who are conflicted right now. |
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kal
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Post by kal on Dec 6, 2021 9:23:49 GMT
I do find the hate for Max’s style slightly at odds with the fond reminiscing of the likes of Prost, Senna, Schumacher etc. I know the sport and attitudes have shifted for very good reasons, but still, this kind of behaviour is what we appreciate many of the greats for.
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Post by Phattso on Dec 6, 2021 9:26:38 GMT
Yeah, memorable (often for bad reasons) as much as laudable.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 6, 2021 9:27:42 GMT
I do understand what he's doing and why he's doing it. He was fairly unlucky with a couple of bits and pieces earlier in the season and is now basically powerless to stop that Mercedes in its current spec and doesn't have enough margin to finish 2nd every race to being it home. But that doesn't mean he should do it. I'd have more respect if he just took it like a man. There's very little he can do about what's happening but sometimes those are the breaks (lol) in Formula One. Head high and come back next year and try again with experience in the bag. As a huge Kimi fan (yes, I will use any opportunity to talk about my retiring hero), it's probably something I can relate to a little more having gone through the heartbreak a couple of times. People seem to confuse his popularity with his non-interviews, but it's more from the fact he had incredible pace in the early noughties but absolutely no luck to back it up. But instead of trying to claw it back by using his car as a weapon, he just accepted what was completely out of his control and took defeat in a dignified manner. Even if that manner manifested itself as a pissup on a yacht once in a while. V1 Kimi was amazing. I heard an interview once with a driver coach who'd had sessions with many F1 drivers including a teenage Kimi. He said Kimi was the only one who'd immediately jumped in and beaten him in the schools track car. That version of the man was a match for Lewis and Max. He was electric in that McLaren. It's very strange how he lost some of that pace at Ferrari. I don't know if it was the rule changes didn't suit him or just having a family dulled the edge. His peak just seemed too brief and I remember being shocked that Massa could match him and by how easily Alonso then Vettel beat him. Over 40s Kimi, sadly reminds me of pre retirement Villeneuve and Hill. The pace has long gone but worse still the judgement has left him. He's had so many bizarre avoidable collisions in the past two years that I find it a bit sad. Coulthard said he knew he had to stop because he gradually realised he couldn't trust his instincts any more. Seems like this is the only explanation for some of Kimi's recent errors. I hope he can bow out in a degree of style next week (unlike Coulthard who had a special livery and onboard cam fitted then crashed out on lap 1). |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 9:41:16 GMT
He should have retired last year really. He's gone one too many, he's too old. Although he's still had a couple of weekends this year that put a few of the youngsters to shame.
Ultimately the two things that did for him as a top end racer were the changes to the tyres once the tyre war was ended and winning a world championship. On the first point, he lost all feel for getting the tyres into the correct window over one lap when everyone moved to generic Bridgestones. He still had amazing race pace but his qualifying deteriorated to the point it compromised too many races for him to be a force. He also made no secret about not caring about records and emulating Schumacher when he made the move to Ferrari. He stated many times he wanted his one championship and after that I genuinely think it was just more of a hobby for him, and fair fucks to him for that.
I'll miss him on the grid. While we're here talking about Max and his latest off track escapade, it's probably quite important to mention Kimi actually as I think his racecraft should be the benchmark for how everyone on the grid operates wheel-to-wheel. He's been the epitome of "Always leave-a da space".
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 9:47:10 GMT
Apart from yesterday like. But come on, the old man probably needs strong glasses just to read these days.
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Post by muddyfunster on Dec 6, 2021 9:48:00 GMT
The Senna Prost era isn't viewed as exemplary by any means. However the two of them had relatively few significant on track clashes and certainly nothing like the frequency with which Max has had contact and near misses.
Also the fact there was gravel everywhere and the cars were fatal meant that much of what was aggressive then is normal today. In that era, you didn't push the guy on the outside off the track. Even going two wheels beyond the curb or white lines was rare.
If anything, the bigger controversies were with drivers like di Ceaseris and Alesi who had reputations for blindly turning into contact at the apex when being overtaken on the inside. The guy on the outside used to be afforded plenty of room as standard because the alternative was dangerous and they didn't want to end up in hospital or put someone else there.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 6, 2021 11:25:12 GMT
I do find the hate for Max’s style slightly at odds with the fond reminiscing of the likes of Prost, Senna, Schumacher etc. I know the sport and attitudes have shifted for very good reasons, but still, this kind of behaviour is what we appreciate many of the greats for. Fond reminiscing of Schumacher? Isn't Schumacher always considered very much the pantomime villain, and respected in spite of his dodgy moves rather than appreciated "for" them. |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 11:35:35 GMT
Schumacher was subject to much more vitriol than the others, being at the height of the England Vs Germany narrative on the wider sporting stage. Remember a lot of nasty and xenophobic stuff flying about at the time and bleeding through into his Ferrari years too. No one comes out of those days looking great.
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kal
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Post by kal on Dec 6, 2021 11:39:28 GMT
Maybe Nigel Mansell would have been a better example than Schumacher. Think the cultural inherent baked in anti-German xenophobia played a bit of a role in Schumacher’s villain role.
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 6, 2021 12:10:16 GMT
Yes all true on Schumacher. Whether Mansell (or the others) are comparable to Verstappen's driving this season though...?
The issue (well my issue at least) with Verstappen is that however much he likes to portray his approach as "hard" racing, it's just cheap and lazy to simply not turn into corners so that people can't go round you - I don't remember (and admittedly they're borderline before my time) the likes of Prost, Senna or Mansell doing that repeatedly throughout a season every time a rival tried to come past.
Verstappen's ballsy lunge down the inside of Hamilton and Ocon off whichever restart yesterday was an actual example of hard racing, and everyone loved it. And if he'd messed it up and taken someone out, then the hard-racing, take-some-risks, people-loved-Senna-for-it argument could arguably happily apply. I just don't see his defensive drive-off-the-track to keep people behind tactic that people are giving him shit for as being in the same camp though.
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Post by Phattso on Dec 6, 2021 13:22:02 GMT
Whatever else this past weekend might've brought us, we can all at least unanimously agree that one of 2021's best televisual moments was Sky's slow-motion playback of Toto Wolff leaping up from his seat, smashing his headset into the table at force, all the while screaming "Fuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkkk!" with literal spittle flecked rage. :-D
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 13:32:58 GMT
Currently being in the market for a decent set of headphones and carefully weighing up my options, he absolutely triggered me by driving what must have been a squillion pound set into his desk without a care in the world.
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Post by brokenkey on Dec 6, 2021 13:59:04 GMT
The looks on the faces of the people at the back of that room...
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Post by Phattso on Dec 6, 2021 14:04:45 GMT
It was the slow-mo that destroyed me. Just needed someone to put The End by The Doors as the backing track.  |
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Dec 6, 2021 14:35:40 GMT
If he takes Hamilton and himself out next race does he not take the championship on wins, just saying.
Think he will be driving a very wide spec Red Bull in that race
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Post by Phattso on Dec 6, 2021 14:38:12 GMT
Everyone has been just saying that since before last weekend. Hamilton has to finish each race, Verstappen does not.
It's going to be so interesting to watch this play out. Season has delivered.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Dec 6, 2021 14:43:44 GMT
Absolutely, scandalous standards of driving at times, but it is box office
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 14:47:38 GMT
They'll disqualify him if he drives into him. They've got what they want out of it; a championship decider. But they won't want a scandal going into the winter break, and most people will only remember the ending ultimately.
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Post by Phattso on Dec 6, 2021 14:49:11 GMT
Indeed. Fate being what it is, the eventual outcome is going to be something very pedestrian. One of the two teams will nail their setup for the weekend, and the two drivers won't ever share the same stretch of tarmac after the first lap.  |
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111
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Post by 111 on Dec 6, 2021 14:53:03 GMT
It's hardly "not a scandal" if they disqualify Verstappen from the championship though, is it? If Verstappen does exactly what he did in Brazil, but Hamilton doesn't dive out the way, there is no non-controversial route forward for the stewards/officials - it'll be a political/PR clusterfuck whatever action they take from that point because as you pointed out before they've made a rod for their own backs by not properly punishing these moves in the earlier races.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Dec 6, 2021 14:54:43 GMT
I only really see the start being a flashpoint to be honest barring safety cars. You'd expect the Merc to be too strong but if Max lines up in second place on the grid it would be more surprising if he didn't throw absolutely everything into T1.
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