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Post by rhaegyr on Mar 17, 2022 13:52:45 GMT
I enjoyed TLJ and I watched it again about 12 months ago. Tbh, I enjoyed it nearly as much as all the pathetic fanboi kvetching about how it had ruined their childhoods. A friend of mine was genuinely furious with regards to Rey's parents being unknowns. Didn't know what to say.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 17, 2022 13:58:56 GMT
The Star Wars shit film list for me is as below (they are all extremely shit, but I have to have an order)
1) Attack of the clones 2) The last Jedi 3) The Rise of Skywalker 4) Revenge of Sith 5) The phantom menace 6) The Force Awakens
I didn't mind Solo as it's quite entertaining. Rogue One and the original trilogy are good
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Post by jimnastics on Mar 17, 2022 14:03:34 GMT
Rogue One is absolute top tier Star Wars, I think I might even put it 3rd behing TESB and ANH. So far and away the best modern SW.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Mar 17, 2022 14:04:17 GMT
I enjoyed TLJ and I watched it again about 12 months ago. Tbh, I enjoyed it nearly as much as all the pathetic fanboi kvetching about how it had ruined their childhoods. A friend of mine was genuinely furious with regards to Rey's parents being unknowns. Didn't know what to say. A colleague of mine the same, for much the same reasons. It was as if they'd been personally promised something. I have rarely seen such levels of anger for a mere filum. Hey ho.
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H-alphaFox
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Post by H-alphaFox on Mar 17, 2022 14:26:21 GMT
I can't for the life of me remember Rogue One, I do remember it being good but can't tell you why. I liked Solo and even saw that twice because the wife fell asleep for the best bit, twice. So will likely watch it again. And I did enjoy all 3 of the sequels, I like pretty much everything Star Wars and at this point even hating on the prequels seems overdone. I didn't particularly like them though but the kids love them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2022 15:20:06 GMT
Rogue One is absolute top tier Star Wars, I think I might even put it 3rd behing TESB and ANH. So far and away the best modern SW. I agree.
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Post by rhaegyr on Mar 17, 2022 16:03:14 GMT
The best thing about Rogue One was
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askew
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Post by askew on Mar 17, 2022 16:17:44 GMT
You dropped some of your post, chief!
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H-alphaFox
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Post by H-alphaFox on Mar 17, 2022 16:19:47 GMT
Seeing as I can't remember I'm guessing it was the pew-pews.
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Post by rhaegyr on Mar 17, 2022 16:37:37 GMT
You dropped some of your post, chief! Just my attempt at a (shit) joke as I didn't really like Rogue One. It's a film version of Flanders' description of Lisa Simpson - "Star Wars' answer to a question nobody asked". I'll get my coat.
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Post by Reviewer on Mar 17, 2022 18:05:42 GMT
Rogue One just needed some editing.
The worst thing about TLJ is that the next film tried to undo it all.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 17, 2022 20:00:55 GMT
Rogue One just needed some editing. The worst thing about TLJ is that the next film tried to undo it all. The last film was garbage but what else was it’s supposed to do. The last Jedi literally gave it nothing to work with. It basically answered every question from the force awakens with ‘ta da we fooled you, everything you thought was being set up for a trilogy meant nothing. Also the end’ . Definitely the worst planned trilogy of all time, but the second film went out of its way to make things worse. And that’s before you get to space Mary poppins, blue breast milk feeding, grumpy luke, slapstick first order general, the slowest spaceship chase ever, the casinos, your mum jokes etc.
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Post by Reviewer on Mar 17, 2022 20:58:38 GMT
It gave it plenty to work with that wasn’t the emperor being alive, Rey being his granddaughter or any of the other shite.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 17, 2022 23:09:52 GMT
It gave it plenty to work with that wasn’t the emperor being alive, Rey being his granddaughter or any of the other shite. So where do you go for the final part? there literally wasn’t one bad guy left from the first two films and it was a trilogy? I’m not defending the emperor shite by the way, that was garbage
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Post by Saul1138 on Mar 18, 2022 2:46:30 GMT
Surely TLJ set up Kylo to be the main villain and the Resistance rebuilding to face him? There should be enough there to base a main storyline around. A couple of simple plot threads to add a second and third layer and you have an enjoyable romp. It doesn’t have to be too deep.
As for the Last Jedi subverting expectations, I cannot get on board with that entirely. People were disappointed that Luke was a hermit. But they were fine, with TFA, showing that there was a massive galactic threat, that Leia saw coming, just abandoning the Resistance to go searching for the history of the Jedi? The way TLJ dealt with it was a bit clumsy, but it gave a better reason for Luke flouncing off.
The space chase was awful. Considering they could launch their fighters after Kylo took out the hangar bay, they could have kept up a sustained attack with the fighters. Pie’s attack at the beginning showed that it was an effective means against the ships cannons. There was room for some real tension there.
The casino was equally clumsy. Handled a little better, it would have provided something nuanced about the role of capitalism in war.
Space Mary Poppins, I don’t get the complaints. It didn’t look good on screen. But Leia unconsciously using the force to save herself was fine. In my humble opinion.
The real waste was characters like Finn and Phasma. Two pretty good actors, given next to nothing to do.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Mar 18, 2022 8:09:04 GMT
Space Mary Poppins, I don’t get the complaints. It didn’t look good on screen. But Leia unconsciously using the force to save herself was fine. In my humble opinion. The real waste was characters like Finn and Phasma. Two pretty good actors, given next to nothing to do. I agree that Phasma was kinda wasted. Finn did have stuff to do, which should have played into the 3rd part, but then part 3 just threw it all away. The 'Space Mary Poppins' thing would have been fine if someone on the internet hadn't pointed out it looked like Mary Poppins. It's one of those things you can't unsee. But the basic idea of her using the force to save herself was fine. Luke made perfect sense, and had a great send off. To be fair to the final film, they did have to work around Carrie Fisher dying. It appeared that there was a general idea to have each sequel film focus on one of the OT trio. Han in the first one, Luke in the second, and Leia in the 3rd. So the 3rd could have had Rey and Leia trying to rebuild the resistance and finding force-sensitive kids to join it, while Kylo went nuts with his obsession of trying to hunt them down and destroy them (probably by building a big round space station ) Finn, Rose and Poe trying to make up for their fuckups in part 2. To be fair, the only bit I really liked in RoS was the dynamic between Rey and Kylo, so you might lose that.
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Snake
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Post by Snake on Mar 18, 2022 9:04:12 GMT
It gave it plenty to work with that wasn’t the emperor being alive, Rey being his granddaughter or any of the other shite. So where do you go for the final part? there literally wasn’t one bad guy left from the first two films and it was a trilogy? I’m not defending the emperor shite by the way, that was garbage They still had Hux and Kylo Ren as antagonists. They could have used the knights of Ren for more than 20 seconds... The First Order was still about...The only bad guy they actually lost was Snoke... As for where they could have gone, maybe show what the First Order looks like under Kylo's command (probably fall apart as he's still too emotional/inexperienced), the rebellion recruiting force sensitives but also regular people and even defectors, the realisation they can't win with just a handful of heroes, what Luke implies in Ep 8. And personally I would have liked to see Rey and Kylo switch sides. Rey seduced by power to save the rebellion, Kylo having to face his war machine killing his mom or Chewie or something. Then having them realise that there is no dark and light side to the force, just troubled people forced to extremes...No need for genocide if you're angry about something, no need to become a celibate monk if you want to help people.. And then in the finale they can have Rey and Kylo taking on the knights, Finn and Rose leading the common folks and breakaway stormtroopers and Poe accepting his place as the new face of the rebellion after Leia passed... I'd really want to see finally someone tackling the issue that came up with Finn in that most stormtroopers at this point don't know any better and would throw down their weapons if they could just see what the result was... Or you, know anything else...There are multiple outs and interesting angles to go in besides "kill that one dude (again) and the new empire dies"...
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Post by rhaegyr on Mar 18, 2022 9:41:54 GMT
I actually wanted a double turn at the end of TLJ during the Snoke fight - Ren going light and Rey going dark.
I think that's because I watch too much wrestling though.
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Post by britesparc on Mar 18, 2022 9:48:54 GMT
If the script/treatment for Trevorrow's third installment is genuine, one of the ideas was genius: that Kylo is "haunted" by the ghost of Luke. We're used to Force Ghosts being good things that our heroes want to see, but the idea that Luke's spirit keeps popping up to try to see the good in his nephew, but Kylo hates it, is fascinating and could have offered both emotion and humour. But then there were a lot of good ideas in that treatment, such as Finn leading a working-class revolution against the First Order on Coruscant.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Mar 18, 2022 10:04:28 GMT
A stormtrooper rebellion, or even a general population rebellion would have been interesting, and very much in keeping with the themes of TLJ. But a proper one with feeling, not just running into a bunch of randoms who were apparently ex stormtroopers but now ride horses. Kylo being followed around by the annoying ghosts of Han, Luke and Leia sounds like great fun. It could have gone all Beetlejuice. I heard the Trevorrow script wasn't a huge improvement so I never checked it out, but maybe I'll google it.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 18, 2022 10:04:55 GMT
So where do you go for the final part? there literally wasn’t one bad guy left from the first two films and it was a trilogy? I’m not defending the emperor shite by the way, that was garbage They still had Hux and Kylo Ren as antagonists. They could have used the knights of Ren for more than 20 seconds... The First Order was still about...The only bad guy they actually lost was Snoke... As for where they could have gone, maybe show what the First Order looks like under Kylo's command (probably fall apart as he's still too emotional/inexperienced), the rebellion recruiting force sensitives but also regular people and even defectors, the realisation they can't win with just a handful of heroes, what Luke implies in Ep 8. And personally I would have liked to see Rey and Kylo switch sides. Rey seduced by power to save the rebellion, Kylo having to face his war machine killing his mom or Chewie or something. Then having them realise that there is no dark and light side to the force, just troubled people forced to extremes...No need for genocide if you're angry about something, no need to become a celibate monk if you want to help people.. And then in the finale they can have Rey and Kylo taking on the knights, Finn and Rose leading the common folks and breakaway stormtroopers and Poe accepting his place as the new face of the rebellion after Leia passed... I'd really want to see finally someone tackling the issue that came up with Finn in that most stormtroopers at this point don't know any better and would throw down their weapons if they could just see what the result was... Or you, know anything else...There are multiple outs and interesting angles to go in besides "kill that one dude (again) and the new empire dies"... well your movie is better than the trash that we got... But Hux was reduced to a slapstick comedy character in TLJ and Kylo Rens path to redemption had been so heavily foreshadowed in both TFA and TLJ that trying to make him the big villian wouldn't have worked. So that leaves the Knights of Ren.... Who? yes who are they and why are we supposed to care again? Are they even mentioned in TLJ?
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Post by Vandelay on Mar 18, 2022 10:07:00 GMT
The 'Space Mary Poppins' thing would have been fine if someone on the internet hadn't pointed out it looked like Mary Poppins. It's one of those things you can't unsee. But the basic idea of her using the force to save herself was fine. I don't know. I remember thinking it looked pretty dumb when I saw it, before reading any of the internet rage. I agree, the idea of her saving herself with the force is fine, but I think it could have been handled with something more subtle that would have been more effective. Just have the room breached rather than completely blown apart, she can't reach the lever to release a sealed door. She suddenly feels the force and can move the lever from distance. Something like that doesn't have the silly image of her floating through space and feels more like a sudden awakening of force power rather than doing something, from what we know, would likely take years and years of focused training. It's a minor complaint though and I don't think it massively detracts from the rest of the film.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Mar 18, 2022 10:11:02 GMT
I would have actually liked Rey to go bad, though I think continuing with TLJ's themes of both the dark and light sides being bad would have been more interesting.
TLJ left Kylo in an interesting place, where he could have gone either dark or light. Hux's rivalry with Kylo could easily have been spun into something interesting, and he could still have been made into a proper bad guy. It'd have been better than just suddenly drafting in a random new bad guy general (and I normally love Richard E Grant).
Or they could have just done what star wars usually do and bring in a random new bad guy sith.
PS/ where did this idea that using the force needs years of training come from? Luke can block blaster bolts with his eyes covered about 5 hours after meeting Ben. Anakin and Leia are both implied to be using force powers subconsciously. I mean, if you're going to subconsciously use force powers then when you're about to die seems like a good time.
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Mar 18, 2022 11:37:30 GMT
It gave it plenty to work with that wasn’t the emperor being alive, Rey being his granddaughter or any of the other shite. So where do you go for the final part? there literally wasn’t one bad guy left from the first two films and it was a trilogy? I’m not defending the emperor shite by the way, that was garbage I think the point was, you come up with something original. Or you panic and get JJ Abrams.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 18, 2022 11:54:53 GMT
So where do you go for the final part? there literally wasn’t one bad guy left from the first two films and it was a trilogy? I’m not defending the emperor shite by the way, that was garbage I think the point was, you come up with something original. Or you panic and get JJ Abrams. Yep and my point was it was next to impossible to come up with something good and original after TLJ as it in no way works as the middle part of a trilogy. Their is no Overriding Arc as everything that was set up in TFA was basically just kyboshed in TLJ. If the Last Jedi was the Final film in the trilogy I'd have a lot less problems with it, but its supposed to be the middle movie, not a vanity project for a director who just wanted to 'Ta Da I got you' everybody at the expense of an overall story. To be honest though you can't blame Johnson for this he is a decent director who was given free reign by JJ and the Disney fuckwits who thought it would be a good idea to create a new star wars trilogy with no idea how it would pan out after the first film....
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Post by rhaegyr on Mar 18, 2022 11:59:00 GMT
TLJ had a better story than both films either side of it imo, even if it's just Luke's arc alone.
TFA was basically ANH and RoS was just a retcon of the film before it. I think calling it a vanity project is a little unfair when it's the only film with a lick of identity and originality.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 18, 2022 12:06:26 GMT
TLJ had a better story than both films either side of it imo, even if it's just Luke's arc alone. TFA was basically ANH and RoS was just a retcon of the film before it. I think calling it a vanity project is a little unfair when it's the only film with a lick of identity and originality. Like I said if it was the final film I'd have a lot more time for it, but its not and it basically destroyed any chance of a coherent trilogy. All directors if given complete free reign will turn their film into a vanity project. This was a middle Star Wars film and he should have been given some parameters and an overriding arc to work with. Or they should have just given him the last film
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Post by britesparc on Mar 18, 2022 12:30:00 GMT
The funny thing about the Knights of Ren is that Johnson said he originally planned to include them in the film - I think they may have replaced the guards who fight Kylo & Rey at the end - but he said that he couldn't afford to give them enough development time or introduce them properly, that they'd be reduced to just nameless bad guys to be slaughtered. So he decided to write them out because he felt it was unfair to the concept to give them such short shrift.
Then Rise of Skywalker happened and we find out they're essentially muddy stormtroopers.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Mar 18, 2022 13:12:11 GMT
But TLJ performed basically the same function as ESB.
The first in both trilogies was where the goodies won and everything was grand. Then the second one was where they said 'hey, you know how you thought this was going to go? Well it's not!'. Which basically gave the 3rd film the option to go anywhere... but it just went back to the old blueprint.
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Post by clemfandango on Mar 18, 2022 13:26:54 GMT
But TLJ performed basically the same function as ESB. The first in both trilogies was where the goodies won and everything was grand. Then the second one was where they said 'hey, you know how you thought this was going to go? Well it's not!'. Which basically gave the 3rd film the option to go anywhere... but it just went back to the old blueprint. It didn't give the option to go anywhere good though as he answered all the questions of the first film in the TLJ as below (that's why I keep saying it would have worked better as a final film). Who is Rey and who are Reys parents? - nobodies Who is Snoke? - a nobody and we definitely do not need anymore information on him Who is Hux? - a comedy character, there for 'Your Mom' jokes Why is Luke in isolation? - coz he's in a grump Who is Finn? - a side character from now on but lets give him a love interest Who is Poe? - an idiot Who are the knights of Ren? - I've no idea, what are they? That Phasma seems interesting? - yeah no What would happen if Leia got sucked into space? - she would hold up her umbrella and fly through the stars back into the ship
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