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Post by rhaegyr on Nov 7, 2024 8:53:46 GMT
And yet, it will somehow still be the Democrat's fault for not being absolutely perfect. I mean, they lost people who would normally vote Democrat, and lost the popular vote. So they probably need to take *some* share of the blame, or at least figure out a platform that will get a plurality of people to vote for them again. There'll probably be a moment of "Am I so out of touch?" that'll soon turn into "No, it's the voters that are wrong".
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Post by mothercruncher on Nov 7, 2024 9:00:40 GMT
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 9:12:14 GMT
People don't just stop voting because the candidate isn't 'perfect', they stop because its pointless. Fundamentally, the question people are asking is: 'is my life better now than four years go?' and it seems like for 15m people it is not.
People voted on the economy but 'They turned the economy around! GDP is up and the markets have never been higher'. Cool. Did GDP stop me being laid off? Did it let me buy a house, have kids or even feed myself? No. I suspect town centres still look like demilitarised zones and young people are still being priced out of everything so they either don't vote or vote nihilistically.
And exactly the same thing is going to happen here. All you hear about is fucking growth. If you don't materially change peoples lives, of course they aren't going to give a fuck. This isn't the fault of people who want better out of the politicians, its the fault of the establishments shift to value the market above its human capital.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 9:15:35 GMT
Basically, thatcher and Reagan ruined politics forever
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Post by drhickman1983 on Nov 7, 2024 9:23:21 GMT
I do understand the apathy but ultimately people who are hardest hit and most disadvantaged under the Democrats are going to be even worse off under the Republican government (Trump's in particular.)
I immaturely think the whole growth and GDP obsessed socioeconomic structure that we - meaning the "Developed" world - have locked ourselves into isn't just flawed, it's broken and unsustainable, and the whole political system that supports this is fundamentally flawed. I have no way of fixing it or suggestions.
It's a shit situation when "least bad" is the best option but that's all anyone is going to get any time soon in both the US but the UK, but abstaining and apathy ultimately just make things worse.
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rftp
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Post by rftp on Nov 7, 2024 9:24:23 GMT
The chickens are once again returning to the roost.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 9:28:40 GMT
It's a shit situation when "least bad" is the best option but that's all anyone is going to get any time soon in both the US but the UK, but abstaining and apathy ultimately just make things worse. This is the thing. If you're already fucked, does it? If you are already living on a knife edge, does Trump actually make a difference to your day to day? Its exactly the reason we got Brexit. If you live in Blackpool and see the town becoming more of a toilet every year and *nobody* is helping you, you're either going to tune out or do something extreme.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Nov 7, 2024 9:31:59 GMT
People don't just stop voting because the candidate isn't 'perfect', they stop because its pointless. Fundamentally, the question people are asking is: 'is my life better now than four years go?' and it seems like for 15m people it is not. People voted on the economy but 'They turned the economy around! GDP is up and the markets have never been higher'. Cool. Did GDP stop me being laid off? Did it let me buy a house, have kids or even feed myself? No. I suspect town centres still look like demilitarised zones and young people are still being priced out of everything so they either don't vote or vote nihilistically. And exactly the same thing is going to happen here. All you hear about is fucking growth. If you don't materially change peoples lives, of course they aren't going to give a fuck. This isn't the fault of people who want better out of the politicians, its the fault of the establishments shift to value the market above its human capital. I agree but Labour have the chance to make it about people aswell as growth. They did just increase the salary of millions by a huge chunk as well as cost businesses. It's a very Labour thing to do. They "just" need to make the economy work for even more people. (I don't know how either)
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 9:35:35 GMT
That's exactly my point. Nannying the markets is just going to see an immediate return to the tories because if your life is still shit, at least they give you someone to blame it on.
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rftp
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Post by rftp on Nov 7, 2024 9:43:52 GMT
The status quo is never going to allow someone who runs on a platform for genuine change to survive, though. Corbyn might have had some ridiculous old school socialist idiocies in his arsenal, but it wasn't those which had him continuously destroyed in the press.
It was the idea that he was offering change from the neoliberal capitalist death cycle model of endlessly increasing profits for the few and people were interested.
Can't have that. Back to right now... Starmer has started the merest of efforts to improve things and he's already "the worst leader ever" in the press and on the socials.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 9:48:54 GMT
The options are 'do something' or 'do nothing because its too hard'. Obviously there is no easy answer and nothing happens overnight but we are manifestly in a slow motion car crash and we are a bit beyond just adjusting the seat belt.
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rftp
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Post by rftp on Nov 7, 2024 9:51:59 GMT
Oh, indeed.
But to paraphrase an anarchist, you can't emancipate the people, the people have to want to emancipate themselves.
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Reviewer
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Post by Reviewer on Nov 7, 2024 9:53:52 GMT
I’m surprised more governments don’t put more into infrastructure projects. They’re big and look nice and sound exciting, pick the right ones and they have big benefits.
I know getting them done on cost is a problem but remove ministers from that part of it and they might stand a chance.
Who wouldn’t vote for a government that’s modernising the country.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Nov 7, 2024 9:54:18 GMT
Clearly in America, they don't.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 9:56:42 GMT
I mean, you look at everything good in this country and it was built post war when we lived in a socialist utopia and taxed the fuck out of the wealthy. You look at everything that's shit now and its all that stuff fallen into disrepair to allow a few thousand people to buy an extra yacht.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Nov 7, 2024 9:58:44 GMT
Infrastructure, particularly on a big scale, usually takes longer than one term, and governments usually only have the one now.
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Post by peekconfusion on Nov 7, 2024 10:01:24 GMT
It's a shit situation when "least bad" is the best option but that's all anyone is going to get any time soon in both the US but the UK, but abstaining and apathy ultimately just make things worse. This is the thing. If you're already fucked, does it? If you are already living on a knife edge, does Trump actually make a difference to your day to day? I think we might find out that the answer to that question - for a very large group of people - is a resounding yes. Edit: and not in a good way
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Nov 7, 2024 10:05:14 GMT
To use the Blackpool example, in the EU their town could get EU money to improve the shit hole (remember reading about places in Wales where EU money improved the place) Now they can't get that and have to hope the UK gov can find some old pennies somewhere for improvement. Of course blackpool and parts of wales where pro brexit
I understand some felt disillusioned by the EU and the ones in the USA where they felt Biden didn't fix all their problems with snap of his fingers
but UK is in worse place due to brexit and trump is going to be bad with trade wars and make people's life harder if prices of food go up (but sure these people will blame Biden, Obama and Harris for prices going up)
to quote the Joker: You get what you fucking deserve!
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Garfy
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Post by Garfy on Nov 7, 2024 10:09:03 GMT
Joker/Quinn 2028
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Post by Dougs on Nov 7, 2024 10:15:07 GMT
Infrastructure, particularly on a big scale, usually takes longer than one term, and governments usually only have the one now. Apart from the 3+ term Conservatives just gone and the 3+ term Labour Government before that. The problem is enabling a change of leadership so easily and regularly. That's what causes resets and short term, personal gain policies.
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Post by zisssou on Nov 7, 2024 10:15:10 GMT
Councils do get 'levelling up' cash, but from what I've seen in a council not too far from me.. they spent it on demolishing a car park and building another car park.
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Post by dfunked on Nov 7, 2024 10:16:02 GMT
Did they at least add an extra level to it?
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Post by zisssou on Nov 7, 2024 10:21:24 GMT
Did they at least add an extra level to it? Probably!
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Post by Jambowayoh on Nov 7, 2024 10:21:43 GMT
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Nov 7, 2024 10:21:43 GMT
I think Leveling up cash in my area was spent on some cycle way roundabout with 36 traffic lights (I might be wrong it was levelling up cash) but still cost nearly £32 million!
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Post by zisssou on Nov 7, 2024 10:27:39 GMT
Aren't we all part of the problem? We're all buying big SUVs because that is what is sold to us as having more room. You can't park these big SUVs everywhere, because the parking spaces are mostly designed for 1970s vehicles, then you've got these big retail parks that everyone gravitates towards to, that are designed so shitly, that you can't get your massive SUV out of them.. and then there's big bottlenecks and you can get stuck on them for 40-50 minutes, meaning the ANPR camera will get you for over staying the two hour limit. And not to mention the B roads that are not designed for these cars either.
RANT OVER. DELETE BRITAIN. START AGAIN.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 7, 2024 10:29:01 GMT
Our council recently spent 50 million (I think) on a park and ride site that isn't actually connected to any roads. Its dependent on a road widening scheme that will be completed 2028 at the very earliest, so everything in this shiny new facility will be at least five years old and basically untouched when it opens.
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Nov 7, 2024 10:34:18 GMT
I'm with Nick on this one. Governments (Western ones at least) have given the reigns to financial institutions (banks, funds, the faceless "market") and these rule only with growth and profit in mind, while public necessities like education, health, insurance, minimum wage, benefits etc. suffer. So, the average Joe and Jane are left feeling (and being) neglected and when they look for someone to blame, the media (also tied to or run by the same institutions) point the finger to scapegoats like immigrants (who often are the result of the same governments fucking their lives). Also, it's difficult to care for diversity, equality, inclusion or even decent human rights when you barely manage to get by, paycheck to paycheck, and conmen weaponise culture wars to keep people engaged and angry for all the wrong reasons...
It's a vicious circle that's tough to break and anyone willing to fight for a change will face an uphill battle (if not totally destroyed in the process).
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Nov 7, 2024 10:43:37 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Nov 7, 2024 10:49:12 GMT
Of course this cycle is a downward cycle, much like a spiral, or flushing toilet.
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