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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 16:37:20 GMT
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Post by gammonbanter on Sept 26, 2021 16:37:20 GMT
TNG did have men in mini skirts too! And Crusher was a single mum which was controversial for the time too I believe.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 16:58:12 GMT
Men in mini skirts only in S1 though
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nazo
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Post by nazo on Sept 26, 2021 16:59:42 GMT
Was Crusher controversial? Her husband was dead, it's not like she was making a lifestyle choice.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 17:09:19 GMT
No idea if she was controversial, but well there are in-universe reasons and on the other hand there are choices made by showrunners. I used to think of Beverly as a forgettable side character, but I've heard from female Trekkies who watched the show in the 80s as young girls that this single mum who at the same time had a well-respected professional career was inspiring to them.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 17:22:53 GMT
As for Guinan, she was "only" a recurring character, but she played a pretty significant role in some of TNG's classics like Measure of a Man, Q Who and Yesterday's Enterprise. Or Ensign Ro, even if that's probably not considered a classic. There are some issues with the character, she's been criticised for serving the "magical negro" trope and for being most of the time just a support character for the main cast to help them with their issues, as opposed to being developed as an actual character of her own. But still, her role in those classics does make me think she's a significant character.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 17:32:47 GMT
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Post by gammonbanter on Sept 26, 2021 17:32:47 GMT
It's all fair criticism. I mean, they literally brought in a lady in a corset and high heels to voyager when ratings were flagging. It worked out in the end I suppose; the actress and character were both great, but still!
Didn't in the introduction of Seven also have the butterfly effect of seeing Obama eventually elected?
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 17:46:42 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 26, 2021 17:46:42 GMT
I think Troi and Crusher are being done down a little by you guys. Both are core cast members who got to lead A as well as B plots throughout TNG.
Although admittedly Troi being so into chocolate ice cream is a bit of stereotyping its not out of step with tv of its time. Or now even.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 17:49:19 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 26, 2021 17:49:19 GMT
Strongest female casting is probably DS9 for consistency and strength of character.
Voyager had Janeway and Torres but as said above as strong as Seven was, she was brought in to sex things up. Her quality as a character seemingly a fortunate aside.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2021 17:56:00 GMT
I think Lwaxana Troi was also an important character across TNG and DS9, but the episodes are often overlooked as she started out as comedic relief more or less (though even in that first episode she was able to spot a bunch of assassins no one else on the Enterprise had noticed, despite how fishy they were (ha) ). But on the subjects of parenting, and aging, and death, her character dealt with some real issues in a completely Star Trek way.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 18:09:06 GMT
Troi and Beverly got their (often questionable) episodes, but I just feel like most of the time they're reduced to their female caretaker roles--when Deanna isn't violated again, that is. Tasha was conceived as a female character to avert these tropes, but the writers and showrunners did such a horrible job at it that the actor rightfully decided to quit. Deanna and Beverly are most of the time just so passive.
Contrast with DS9. Kira is such an amazing strong character, wonderfully written and wonderfully acted. She's a top contender for my favourite Trek character of all time.
Lwaxana... I like Lwaxana. Her main problem isn't that she's a bad character, it's that most of her episodes are bad. She's a woman past middle age who likes sexual adventure, she's... vibrant, she's actually got some serious emotional baggage, and I like her for all of that.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 18:19:02 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 26, 2021 18:19:02 GMT
I think there’s a case for Lwaxana having one of the most complete character-driven emotional arcs of any Trek character when TNG and DS9 are both taken into account
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nazo
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Post by nazo on Sept 26, 2021 18:24:23 GMT
DS9 had Dax and Kira, who were great, but still only 2 main characters. On the periphery there's the female changling and Winn. For the men you have Sisko, Bashir, O'Brian, Odo, Quark, Jake, Nog, the main Klingons, the main Cardassians, Weyoun... Even Voyager, with a female captain, the men outnumber the women.
90's Trek is very much a boy's club.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 18:30:10 GMT
Totally true, it's a show run by men and written mostly by men. There's no exception to this day.
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razz
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Post by razz on Sept 26, 2021 18:45:59 GMT
Rewatching ENT I noticed how straight misogynistic the show can be too. We've come a long way in the past 20 years, makes me appreciate DIS even more.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 18:54:30 GMT
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Post by technoish on Sept 26, 2021 18:54:30 GMT
I found the start of ENT to be terrible in that regard. Leering letches that was never a thing in earlier series. Maybe they were supposed to be more primitive?
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 18:58:55 GMT
I believe they wanted to make ENT humans more simple-minded folk, and they certainly succeeded in that. Perhaps too much.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 26, 2021 19:05:22 GMT
Contrast with DS9. Kira is such an amazing strong character, wonderfully written and wonderfully acted. She's a top contender for my favourite Trek character of all time. Kira is great, isn't she. Haven't really warmed to Dax yet. She seems too perfect and a bit cold. Apart from the Trill, there's nothing particularly interesting about her personality. I'm only up to episode 14 of the first series though so still early days
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 19:07:52 GMT
I never warmed to Jadzia, never found her that interesting. But Kira, fuck me, what a great character.
edit: at episode 14, you haven't seen Duet yet. I'd love to hear your opinion on that one.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 19:08:37 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 26, 2021 19:08:37 GMT
I believe they wanted to make ENT humans more simple-minded folk, and they certainly succeeded in that. Perhaps too much. Very true. They all appear to have a lot more “contemporary” attitudes than the Voyager crew had, and unfortunately it was the era of Limp Bizkit and American Pie.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 19:14:53 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 26, 2021 19:14:53 GMT
I never warmed to Jadzia, never found her that interesting. But Kira, fuck me, what a great character. I wonder if Jadzia’s perfection was deliberate to draw a clearer distinction between the ‘mature’ Federation and the young, angry Bejoran nation /Kira. Also later in the run hiding it so I don’t spoil the rewatch I think the addition of Worf adds a new dimension to her character even if she is still largely the perfect officer.
I actually think Ezri has a more interesting arc but I don’t think her vulnerability and uncertainty would’ve been a good fit earlier in the series.
Sisko boning the mirror universe Jadzia was weird though, right?
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 19:19:02 GMT
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Post by technoish on Sept 26, 2021 19:19:02 GMT
So, fuck the mirror universe is all I have to say.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 19:30:37 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Sept 26, 2021 19:30:37 GMT
I was surprised to see how forgoten Jadzia was in most episodes of DS9. She would get her 1 or 2 episodes a season, but would mostly just be in the background the rest of the time. She always ended up just popping up for Sisko to discuss an issue with or even Quark, often not having much to do herself.
Her later relationship helped, but it still felt forced and I didn't really buy them as an item.
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Star Trek
Sept 26, 2021 21:13:07 GMT
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Post by gammonbanter on Sept 26, 2021 21:13:07 GMT
Sorry, I instantly skip any episode with Lwaxana in it! Even Picard hated her, I'll go with his judgement!
I think I might have missed a Dixon Hill episode because of this policy, but I can live with that.
Gonna start Contagion (season 2) in a bit!
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 21:24:22 GMT
Don't underestimate Lwaxana episodes. I love how Picard comes out of the turbolift, anxiously looking left and right before he decides to give it a try, but he's immediately ambushed by Lwaxana. Somewhat controversial, I think "Half a Life" is a pretty good episode.
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tengu
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Post by tengu on Sept 26, 2021 22:14:17 GMT
I was surprised to see how forgoten Jadzia was in most episodes of DS9. She would get her 1 or 2 episodes a season, but would mostly just be in the background the rest of the time. She always ended up just popping up for Sisko to discuss an issue with or even Quark, often not having much to do herself. Her later relationship helped, but it still felt forced and I didn't really buy them as an item. She was kind of wasted for the most part. Episodes like Rejoined felt like the closest the show ever came to giving her any genuine character development but it never really seemed like enough. She really did just feel like she was primarily used in service to other characters' development at the expense of her own. I honestly felt like Ezri was a better developed character across one season than Jadzia was across six though.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 26, 2021 22:26:48 GMT
I agree with that, I liked Ezri more than I liked Jadzia. But of course she was introduced in S7, in a season where they struggled to wrap everything up. No place for a new character really.
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Lizard
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Star Trek
Sept 27, 2021 5:45:58 GMT
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Post by Lizard on Sept 27, 2021 5:45:58 GMT
Loved Ezri much more than Jadzia. I always thought the serial killer episode was really good.
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Star Trek
Sept 27, 2021 9:44:00 GMT
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Post by simple on Sept 27, 2021 9:44:00 GMT
Enterprise rewatch: Carbon Creek is a really nice ‘trapped in the past’ style episode. Strong hints of TNG after the slightly sterile first season. Speaking of the first season I think the season finale would have been a lot more interesting if the Enterprise had destroyed the colony and were being forced to reckon with the consequences of their actions and impact of how hard life can be in the galaxy. The temporal cold war stuff doesn’t really do much for me and scheming villains feel a bit old hat for Trek by this point.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Sept 27, 2021 10:27:31 GMT
Loved the latest episode of Lower decks. Jeffery Combs is awesome as ever!
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nazo
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Post by nazo on Sept 27, 2021 10:52:25 GMT
I'm team Jadzia all the way. Maybe her character arrived a bit too well-formed. Smart, confident, assertive, I thought she was really sexy. I can see why some guys would be threatened by that and prefer the vulnerable, unsure Ezri though
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