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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 8, 2021 22:24:12 GMT
I was about to name it "The Official 2D Platformer Thread", but "2D Platformers" is probably more concise. I thought it'd be great to have a thread dedicated to discussing 2D (or 2.5D--boo!) platform games no matter if they're old or new, as in recent years I've come full circle to mostly playing those again instead of 3D games. "Pure" platformers like Super Mario World or Giana Sisters, action platformers like Mega Man or Contra, puzzle platformers like Lost Vikings or Trine, metroidvanias like Super Metroid or Hollow Knight, roguelikes like Rogue Legacy or 30XX. Much of this overlaps with other threads, notably the Retro Gaming thread, I'm just trying to give this the dedicated place it needs, to discuss everything particular to this type of game. To start off, very recently I found the Metroidvania Reviews Youtube channel that in my opinion gives very good overviews and reviews of metroidvania games far beyond the usual "top 10 whatever" throwaway videos and exposes you to games you probably haven't heard of. It's a relatively young channel without many videos, but it gets my personal recommendation and I think it has far too few watches and followers. And to bait everyone into commenting and keeping this thread alive: why do you play these games? What do they have that 3D games don't?
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 9, 2021 2:50:48 GMT
I play them because they have precision and simplicity, and are a joy to play in a way that many 3d platformers are not.
Which isn't to say that I enjoy all of them! Just that, on the whole, I'll enjoy, say, a 2d (or 2.5d) Mario more than a 3d one.
Also, I'll take any excuse to shout out for Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom, which is better than Hollow Knight and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. BLUE SKIES IN GAMES
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Sept 9, 2021 4:00:11 GMT
I find them more immediately enjoyable and generally of a better quality than many 3D platformers. This may be largely due to nostalgia.
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Sept 9, 2021 7:32:21 GMT
I play them because Super Mario World is the pinnacle of videogaming, and I keep hoping I'll find something that comes anywhere near close. When they're done properly, when the controls are right, the momentum is just right, the levels designed properly, they're just pure joy to play. It's all about control - once you've played Symphony of the Night a few times it's far from challenging, but it just feels so damn silky smooth and controllable that it's fun to just negotiate the map. Having not played a 2D Nintendo platformer for years, than starting New Mario Deluxe on Switch, you realise just how far ahead of everybody else they are. They just understand how these games should feel. Love the first two Sonic games, the rest tried to add too much stuff in and slowed them down a bit - kind of missed the point for me. I've got Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze in the pile, seems very competent indeed from the ten minutes I've had. MolarAm🔵 I have both of these in the pile. Trying to decide which to play first.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 9, 2021 7:37:42 GMT
Precision and simplicity is probably a good description
Is Gianna Sisters Twisted Dreams good? I've read mixed things about it - bad level design is a common one. It's pretty expensive as well
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Sept 9, 2021 10:23:44 GMT
Precision and simplicity is probably a good description Is Gianna Sisters Twisted Dreams good? I've read mixed things about it - bad level design is a common one. It's pretty expensive as well It definitely has its moments. It's been a while, but I do remember some really aggravating sections, there's a lot of sitting on moving platforms which is a massive bugbear of mine. it drops quite regularly though, defo worth the fiver it drops to every now and again.
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Post by theguy on Sept 9, 2021 12:19:06 GMT
In a thread of 2D Platformers I have to give a mention to 'Splosion Man and its sequel. Don't know what happened to Twisted Pixel but they had a good run of Arcade games back on the 360
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 10, 2021 0:14:51 GMT
I think one of the reasons (particularly for platformers) is that you can perfectly see where you're going and jumping. In 3D games this can be pretty awkward. While replaying Super Mario 64 recently--which is an awesome game--I frequently had issues with camera and perspective. It could be difficult to figure out how far and large the next platform is, to figure out how to control my jump mid-air, and the camera sometimes moving around mid-jump didn't help at all. Jumping on a Goomba, one of the most fundamental actions in a Super Mario game, is just much easier in the 2D games. I always thought SM64 would be one of the games that would benefit most from stereoscopic 3D.
In 2D platformers that's simply no issue whatsoever, it is as clear as day. And the less time you need figuring out depth perception and moving the camera around instead of just jumping there because it's obvious, the better. Platformers are probably the most obvious genre where moving to 3D causes issues, unlike shooters like Doom whose 2D precursors are probably best thought of as top-down shooting games.
You move so quickly from getting to learn the game to just doing it all intuitively, which I think plays a major role in feeling gaming bliss. Another thing is that you actually see everything around you, no matter which direction you're facing. It's like having a 360-degree awareness of things which you just can't have in 3d games unless you set your FOV to 360 which is super awkward to put it mildly.
Agree with you marcp that having great control can make just jumping around feel good. I'm strongly feeling this in 30XX and Bloodstained's Zangetsu mode.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 10, 2021 0:21:39 GMT
So I've bought Rogue Legacy two days ago (late to the party). I skipped it first because I didn't find gameplay footage too interesting, but after getting really picky about physics/mechanics it looked pretty good to me so I decided to try it.
While I do like the no-nonsense physics and I appreciate the difficulty, it feels a little... bland and repetitive. Maybe complaining about repetitiveness in a roguelike is a topic of its own, but I feel like I'm just playing the same 10 rooms with the same 5 enemies again and again. Come to think of it, the only roguelike that I really enjoyed was Binding of Isaac, and that's to a great part because your item combinations could quickly go utterly mental. I'm just not feeling it in Rogue Legacy.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 10, 2021 0:24:53 GMT
In a thread of 2D Platformers I have to give a mention to 'Splosion Man and its sequel. Don't know what happened to Twisted Pixel but they had a good run of Arcade games back on the 360 Many thanks, I was looking for that indie game that Konami shamelessly stole and just couldn't recall the name, turns out it was Splosion Man and Capcom's (not Konami's) MaxPlosion. Going to look into that further.
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Post by theguy on Sept 10, 2021 16:03:12 GMT
In a thread of 2D Platformers I have to give a mention to 'Splosion Man and its sequel. Don't know what happened to Twisted Pixel but they had a good run of Arcade games back on the 360 Many thanks, I was looking for that indie game that Konami shamelessly stole and just couldn't recall the name, turns out it was Splosion Man and Capcom's (not Konami's) MaxPlosion. Going to look into that further. Oh yeah, I remember all that. Twisted Pixel put in a secret area for Ms Splosion Man, where they briefly mocked Capcom for ripping off their game. Star road I think it's called
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Post by BurnoutJunkie on Sept 11, 2021 9:35:07 GMT
Love 2D platformers, though I haven’t played any in a while. I own multiple games and own a bunch I’ve not even played yet. Super Mario World was my first intro to then, and is probably still my favourite of the lot. Have re-played it many times before. Would love for a remaster with full widescreen and 1080p (if not 4K) - keep everything else the same. Would love this to happen with Super Metroid too, except maybe adjust the super-floaty jump on that one.
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Sept 15, 2021 5:41:51 GMT
I play them because they have precision and simplicity, and are a joy to play in a way that many 3d platformers are not. Which isn't to say that I enjoy all of them! Just that, on the whole, I'll enjoy, say, a 2d (or 2.5d) Mario more than a 3d one. Also, I'll take any excuse to shout out for Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom, which is better than Hollow Knight and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. BLUE SKIES IN GAMES I should receive my 8bitdo pad in the next day or two and MBatCK is on sale on Steam... hopefully my laptop's onboard graphics can cope. Haven't played a Wonder Boy game since Monsterland on the Amiga about 25 years ago. Loved that then and I'm sure I'll love this now.
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mrpon
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Post by mrpon on Sept 15, 2021 7:50:01 GMT
Big fan, finished Axiom Verge the other night and loved it. Which then lead me down the rabbit hole and I found Environmental Station Alpha. Not played it yet, but it's a similar theme. The downgrade in fidelity could be too much to take though I think.
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Post by britesparc on Sept 15, 2021 8:59:16 GMT
I'm gonna make a big confession here. Up until about six or seven years ago I had no idea what the term "Metroidvania" meant. This is because I didn't have a console till the first Xbox (well, technically my brother had an N64 I suppose) so I'd never played Metroid or Castlevania. Now, I wasn't ignorant enough not to grasp that the term was referencing those games, I just didn't understand what it *meant*.
I think it was when I was playing Guacamelee - which was one of the first Games With Gold for the Xbox One, I believe - and saw it described as a Metroidvania when it finally clicked, and despite being sat alone in my front room I said, "Oh, it means it's like Flashback."
Anyway, there you go, my 2D platforming confession.
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Post by richyroo on Sept 15, 2021 9:16:49 GMT
"Oh, it means it's like Flashback."
I'm not sure that you do get what Metroidvania actually means. Or perhaps I dont?!.....
To me, a metroidvania needs to tick the following boxes:
- 2d sidescroller, although i guess they can be 3d.
- Room based. Most Metroidvanias will come complete with a map where each room is shown as an idividual square on the map. - ESSENTIAL: Areas locked off until you find the necessary upgrade to access that area. This means a lot of backtracking.
The game "Flashback" does have some similar traits as a Metroidvania but in my view its just a 2d sidescroller. Others may disagree.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Sept 15, 2021 9:40:30 GMT
Having acquire new abilities that give access to previously blocked areas is absolutely key for a metroidvania.
It also needs to have large sprawling levels to facilitate this. I don't mind if it has several levels that require loading between or, if it's one big level.
But if it's purely linear, where you don't revisit levels it's not a metroidvania.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Sept 15, 2021 9:42:05 GMT
Incidentally I've been playing Horace recently. It's very enjoyable. Quite charming and funny to.
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Post by britesparc on Sept 15, 2021 9:58:37 GMT
Hmmm, it may be that I still don't understand! In Flashback there's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and adventure game aspects as you need to complete puzzles/quests to acquire something to get past an area (same in the Shadow of the Beast games IIRC). Some of the levels are very big and require you to revisit areas when you've done whatever or picked up whatever in order to pass through that section. It was in stark contrast, back then, to the way more linear platformers that required you to just get to the end of a level, or maybe collect enough keys or whatever to open a gate. I suppose you don't acquire new abilities though, not really, so if that's a core component then fair enough. Anyway, there should be more games like Flashback.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2021 10:11:55 GMT
In my mind, a true metroidvania should have simple, fast traversal and combat, enemies are only really there to get in the way a bit and slow you down, to make backtracking easier. It's more about exploration than combat (which is why I think HK is a bit different)
It's a really vague term though
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Post by drhickman1983 on Sept 15, 2021 10:12:39 GMT
For me, it's that, with perhaps the exception of the teleporter, you don't unlock new areas through abilities, the new areas are unlocked by flipping switches or by progressing the story.
But you are right, there is some degree of backtracking involved in Flashback.
I suppose it's the degree of backtracking too, whilst Flashback will see you backtrack within an individual level, a typical Metroidvania would see you return to the very first areas at later points.
For instance, imagine you get an ability that lets you climb certain walls, and then you remember there is one of those walls way back in very first area...
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Sept 15, 2021 10:56:01 GMT
Anyway, there should be more games like Flashback. I can highly recommend The Eternal Castle Remastered. Which it isn't. Remastered that is, though it almost fooled me. It's great.
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Post by britesparc on Sept 15, 2021 11:16:03 GMT
For me, it's that, with perhaps the exception of the teleporter, you don't unlock new areas through abilities, the new areas are unlocked by flipping switches or by progressing the story. ... For instance, imagine you get an ability that lets you climb certain walls, and then you remember there is one of those walls way back in very first area... It's funny, but this is a game design strategy that I associate most closely with TT's Lego games, even though I know it predates them. If ever I play a game with relatively obvious gating (even if it's just for some minor trophy) my brain goes, "Oh, I need to unlock that character when I've got enough studs".
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Cappy
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Post by Cappy on Sept 15, 2021 12:12:31 GMT
I'm pretty certain that nobody used the term 2D platformer until 3D platformers already existed and became popular. Prior to this they were just platformers, a name that stuck from the days when games like the original Mario Brothers featured a static screen with coloured blocks hanging in black space.
As such, 2D platformers don't really exist as a distinct genre, it's a loose generalised term that might cover anything featuring a character jumping, what about some other games that meet those criteria? Is Contra a platformer? How about Metal Slug? Is Turrican a platformer?
Maybe it needs to be more specific, 2D pixel graphics and jumping = 2D platformer. But what if somebody made a first person game in the classic Doom engine where you have to try (and probably fail) to climb and jump various pits... But hold on, Doom already featured jumping, is this a long lost member of the 2D platformer tribe?
Perhaps you just know it when you see it. What is Yoshi's Story for the N64? What is Klonoa for the PS1? If they're 2D platformers where does Jumping Flash fit in? Ah, 3D platformer. But what about Klonoa?. 2.5D Platformer! What the Hell is 2.5D? There is a Z axis in Klonoa yet it's not 3D? Klonoa has been measured and it has exactly half a Z axix. What if a sly, sneaky 3D game hides it's Z axis? What if a dirty, con merchant of a 2D game fools you into seeing a Z axis that isn't really there? Like Nebulus (A.K.A Tower Toppler).
In videogames, traditional genre demarcation is dying. 2D platformer works for the time being when a certain number of people still know what you are talking about. Making distinctions based on how a game was rendered will probably become as nonsensical as a library categorising books based on paper stock and binding type. Past that point, loads of games from what we considered distinct groupings will probably just get rolled up into 'fantasy adventure', 'action adventure', 'thriller', 'horror' etc. But no romance, there was never any romance in videogames.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2021 13:52:45 GMT
Can't tell if your post is serious
Contra is a 2D action platormer. It takes place on a 2D plane, has platforming and action aspects. It's pretty straight forward. 2.5D are games that take place on a 2D plane but use 3D graphics
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Cappy
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Post by Cappy on Sept 15, 2021 15:16:59 GMT
Your definition of 2.5D is incorrect. You can't have a 2D plane and also a Z axix, everything called 2.5D is 3D with a fixed camera but it's still 3D.
Unless you're focusing on retro games, in terms of mechanics nearly everything boils down to just a few genres post mid 90s. Graphic adventure/Visual novel, Action/adventure, RPG, Puzzle and Simulation/Management. Action adventure has become so mechanically broad it encompasses stealth, platforming, beat em' up, action RPG etc. It's probably going to consume all the other genres besides the mobile puzzle games.
Platformers haven't been a distinct genre since the days when you could buy Bubble Bobble from Woolworths.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2021 16:23:34 GMT
Your definition of 2.5D is incorrect. You can't have a 2D plane and also a Z axix, everything called 2.5D is 3D with a fixed camera but it's still 3D. Unless you're focusing on retro games, in terms of mechanics nearly everything boils down to just a few genres post mid 90s. Graphic adventure/Visual novel, Action/adventure, RPG, Puzzle and Simulation/Management. Action adventure has become so mechanically broad it encompasses stealth, platforming, beat em' up, action RPG etc. It's probably going to consume all the other genres besides the mobile puzzle games. Platformers haven't been a distinct genre since the days when you could buy Bubble Bobble from Woolworths. You're being a bit weird though. The only real purpose of genres is as a way to easily describe something to someone. The gameplay takes place on a 2D plane, the graphics are 3D. 2.5D is a made up term specifically to describe those kinds of games. Developers don't need to apply for a genre permit before releasing a game. It's pretty fluid. You can boil things down but how is that helpful? You can use 'platform' collectively for all 2D and 3D platform games, you can then differenciate them further into 2D and 3D platformers, and so on
There are a couple that are a bit woolly, like metroidvania or rogue likes because they describe a collection of various different aspects but not always the same ones (and in different quanitities) but it's only really ultra nerds who care. Some people hate the term metroidvania
There are loads of indie 2D platform games. It's still a completely relevant genre
I swear you're trolling
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 15, 2021 17:09:00 GMT
Anyway, there should be more games like Flashback. I can highly recommend The Eternal Castle Remastered. Which it isn't. Remastered that is, though it almost fooled me. It's great. Another person who played this! I loved it, if you like flashback etc it's a must!
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Post by Rodimus-Prime on Sept 15, 2021 17:21:00 GMT
One of the best ones that i've played in a good long while, is Ninja Pizza Girl. Sort of a free running, parkour style game. Almost like a 2D Mirror's Edge - even down to some very simple combat.
It's quite funny, because you can unlock a 3D mode and play an level from a first-person perspective. It just highlights how different 2D and 3D games are.
I recently bought Caveman Warriors as it was on sale. It's pretty good, kind of a throwback to the types of colourful, non-Sonic games i owned on the Mega Drive as a kid.
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LTK
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Post by LTK on Sept 15, 2021 22:13:55 GMT
I play them because they have precision and simplicity, and are a joy to play in a way that many 3d platformers are not. Which isn't to say that I enjoy all of them! Just that, on the whole, I'll enjoy, say, a 2d (or 2.5d) Mario more than a 3d one. Also, I'll take any excuse to shout out for Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom, which is better than Hollow Knight and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. BLUE SKIES IN GAMES I've only played Wonder Boy and the Dragon's Trap remake, which was pretty fun, but eventually it got so obtuse that I had no idea where to go or what to do next so I gave up on it. Is Monster Boy similar, or does it have more modern sensibilities?
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