MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,855
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 15, 2021 22:39:54 GMT
I play them because they have precision and simplicity, and are a joy to play in a way that many 3d platformers are not. Which isn't to say that I enjoy all of them! Just that, on the whole, I'll enjoy, say, a 2d (or 2.5d) Mario more than a 3d one. Also, I'll take any excuse to shout out for Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom, which is better than Hollow Knight and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. BLUE SKIES IN GAMES I've only played Wonder Boy and the Dragon's Trap remake, which was pretty fun, but eventually it got so obtuse that I had no idea where to go or what to do next so I gave up on it. Is Monster Boy similar, or does it have more modern sensibilities? Monster Boy isn't a remake like the other one. It's completely new, and modern. You'll probably like it a lot more. |
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 17, 2021 10:52:25 GMT
Abandoned Rogue Legacy, it's just so repetitive. Tried the Environmental Station Alpha demo (wanted to look into earlier but forgot about it until it was mentioned in this thread), good there was a demo because joypad controls don't work. Like not at all, no reaction to any input even when it's set to joypad controls in the settings. I googled this and others had the same issue, the few solutions I found online didn't work on my PC. I play these games on my TV and I don't feel like fucking around with Joy2Key or whatever just to get them running.
Related to that, gave Cave Story+ another try, reluctantly on keyboard. I'm not really feeling it. What puts me off most (aside from keyboard only) is the jump physics which are so floaty and momenty it reminds me of C64 games. Maybe that's intentional, but I really don't like it.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 17, 2021 10:52:35 GMT
As for "metroidvania", it's a somewhat controversial term because it's poorly defined, it's a fuzzy term that refers to a vague idea of what Super Metroid and Castlevania SotN have in common. The interpretation of this is pretty subjective, and so there's often disagreement if a given game that doesn't follow every metroidvania trope should actually be called one. It's debatable if you can call it a "genre" at all or if it describes only the structure of a game in another genre (most typically but not exclusively, platformers).
Personally I don't think one can make a clear distinction here, the lines are very blurred, I think it's a bit of both. I guess there are many games that just utilise some typical elements, on the other hand it has become kind of a genre of its own--many players treat is at one, and crucially I think many developers do too. There are many games that follow the typical structure and tropes so much you get a strong feeling that the developer started designing their game thinking "I want to make a metroidvania". As opposed to "I want to make an exploratory platformer".
I'm not too fond of the term myself, but when I want to talk about this type of game, "metroidvania" is snappier than, say, "exploratory platformer with backtracking and an emphasis on unlocking new areas by means of newly acquired abilities". I'm relying on some more or less vague consensus on what the term means. And I mean, it's hardly alone in being a fuzzy term for a genre or quasi-genre--I mean, please define RPG. There are countless cases where you could argue forever "is XY an RPG?" because it's poorly defined too, and you could also argue about if "RPG" is even a genre at all or rather a set of typical traits, which itself will be contested by many as for how essential they are for calling something "RPG". Yet when talking about games, "RPG" is often treated like a genre. In fact, I think it's actually easier to pinpoint "metroidvania" than "RPG".
There are many difficulties with this sort of classification. One of them seems that a metroidvania (as a genre) is typically thought of as a 2D game. But if that's true, is Metroid Prime not a metroidvania? It has all the structural elements, and for God's sake, Metroid is one of the namesakes of the term. Yet it doesn't fit into what kind of game many think of when talking about "metroidvanias". Also ironically, SotN and subsequent Castlevania games following its formula got their own subgenre term "igavania", despite SotN being the game that spawned the term "metroidvania". I think this is testament to how "metroidvania" has become a quasi-genre of its own, independent of the games the term was named after.
Historically, iirc the term was invented by a game journalist who originally used it only internally, nicknaming Castlevania SotN "Metroidvania" in light of its radical departure from most earlier games in the series, seemingly borrowing heavily from Super Metroid. The devs denied that, stating they were inspired by Zelda, not Metroid, but I wonder if anyone who looked at SotN's map screen didn't instantly think that's just copy&pasted from Super Metroid.
While most previous Castlevania games were purely linear affairs without any ability increase worth mentioning, SotN radically changed the game using structural elements known from Super Metroid:
- a large two-dimensional map with distinct areas instead of a linear succession of linear levels
- backtracking through the entire map isn't only possible, but required
- character growth by learning new abilities like higher jump, double jump, flight, diving
- character growth by getting more health and dealing more damage
- thanks to the two points above, a changed game experience when revisiting places
- and most importantly, map progression by means of acquiring these abilities--e.g. a platform being out of reach early in the game, but accessible once you get your double jump. Contrast to simply finding keycards which isn't ability-based
After SotN, more games started adopting these elements, slowly but steadily turning "metroidvania" into a quasi-genre. Today, there are so many exploration-based platformers where early in the game you see platforms out of reach, destructible blocks that you can't destroy yet, obvious "wall-jump towers" with alternating spikes left and right but you don't have wall jump yet. These tropes make it unmistakably clear you're playing a metroidvania.
One thing they tend to have in common is that most of them aren't too heavy on skill-based precision platforming, their greater emphasis being on exploration. And while Hollow Knight is a pretty typical metroidvania in most aspects, mostly taking the best parts that have worked in the past without actually doing much truly original, its emphasis on challenging precision combat is one of the things that are not typical for the "genre".
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Post by docrob on Sept 19, 2021 22:46:11 GMT
Hmmm, it may be that I still don't understand!  In Flashback there's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and adventure game aspects as you need to complete puzzles/quests to acquire something to get past an area (same in the Shadow of the Beast games IIRC). Some of the levels are very big and require you to revisit areas when you've done whatever or picked up whatever in order to pass through that section. It was in stark contrast, back then, to the way more linear platformers that required you to just get to the end of a level, or maybe collect enough keys or whatever to open a gate. I suppose you don't acquire new abilities though, not really, so if that's a core component then fair enough. Anyway, there should be more games like Flashback. I loved Flashback back in the Megadrive days! I actually have a copy on Steam I must install sometime. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 24, 2021 15:26:58 GMT
Castlevania Advance collection |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 27, 2021 18:22:49 GMT
Tropical Freeze is pretty incredible. Every level has so much going on
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Kay
New Member
Posts: 847
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Post by Kay on Sept 27, 2021 18:40:43 GMT
Been meaning to get round to that - I've had it for years but only ever played the first few levels. This is despite replaying and completing the first two DKC games last year on Switch Online.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 27, 2021 18:43:25 GMT
I think I'd rather Retro stuck to DK or a 2D Metroid
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Post by erekose on Sept 27, 2021 22:26:36 GMT
Been meaning to get round to that - I've had it for years but only ever played the first few levels. This is despite replaying and completing the first two DKC games last year on Switch Online. Am currently replaying DKC1 at the moment. Harder than I remember, or maybe I’ve just gotten soft. |
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zagibu
Junior Member
Posts: 1,954
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Post by zagibu on Sept 27, 2021 23:26:01 GMT
Some of the best games I've played lately were 2D platformers: Hollow Knight, Blasphemous, Valfaris. I've always had a soft spot for them. The good ones have simple controls, but are hard to master. Other platformers that I've enjoyed over the years were Intrusion 2, Risk of Rain, Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, Limbo, Gish, Eternal Daughter, Legend of Shadow (2004). I've also enjoyed Cave Story, but couldn't get into La Mulana. It just felt clunky.
I've often played them during pauses on LAN parties, and there was always a crowd gathering behind my chair. 2D platformers are somehow so distilled that you can understand them at first glance, but yet the good ones still provide enough depth to not get boring, even just watching someone else play them.
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Post by captaincrumb on Oct 7, 2021 15:44:55 GMT
I didn't want to start an entirely new thread about this, but since you've mentioned it, I FINALLY GOT THANATOPHOBIA IN ROGUE LEGACY.
Years in the making, and, like all of the harder achievements in gaming, leaves me with a sense of melancholy after completing it. I always expect that it will give you some profound new perspective on life when you smash a platinum/ultra rare trophy, but usually it leaves you feeling empty after it. You're just taking one more reason away for playing the game again, after all.
Anyway, 2D platformers are one of my favourite genres, always have been. Our first console was the NES (we had an Atari prior to that, but I hardly remember it so it doesn't count) and that meant my introduction to gaming was Mega Man, TMNT, Tom and Jerry, Mario Bros 1 and 3 and the like.
I read a few posts from earlier in the thread, so apologies if it's been covered, but one of the main draws of 2d platformers for me is the absence, or at least the reduced presence, of RNG. Too many modern games rely on RNG as a part of the difficulty curve, and it only breeds resentment when you feel like you were unfairly done.
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 17:28:24 GMT
Sorry but I'm in the mood to complain about my qualms with Hollow Knight. Sorry if this was unasked for. Also, please keep in mind this is my subjective perception, I'm not claiming objective truth.
So...
I gave HK 5/10 after my first playthrough, 6/10 after my second (total playtime: 50 hours). I tried to like it, but I just couldn't.
My biggest gripe with the game is its excessive use of visual effects and screen shake and "time pause" in certain situations. Modern 2D platformers have a tendency to be excessive with all that, but thankfully some of them have options in the menu to tone that down. Sadly, HK is not one of them.
Whenever you hit an enemy, there's a lot of VFX happening on screen, most of the time making it difficult to figure out where the enemy you hit is for a moment. This becomes worse when there's a second enemy obscured by the VFX because you have no idea where it is for that moment. In the arena battle, when an enemy hits me I'm supposed to steer sideways while I'm falling down to avoid the spikes. Sadly, the enemy hitting me fills the screen with a thousand black spots so I don't even know where I am and so I fall down into the spikes. Just because the game is obsessed with VFX. NES games had no such issue.
In boss battles, I try to keep up my rhythm, but hitting it while it's blocking causes a short time pause that ruins my rhythm. Modern 2D games have a tendency to spam millions of VFX just because they can. Celeste makes the screen shake whenever you do a double jump, Gato Roboto has screen shake during fucking dialogue. Modern 2D games apply screen shake so much that I wonder why nobody came up with the idea to just make the screen shake all the fucking time. But I digress. HK is excessive with VFX and screen shake, and if there was an option in the menu to turn that crap off, my rating would instantly rise from 6/10 to 8/10. But alas, there's no such option in HK.
Then there's your weapon, the nail. It's fine for some time, but in the long run I find it super repetitive and boring. Compare to 10 or so different weapon types in Bloodstained that all play differently, before even mentioning the individual weapons within each category. There's nothing wrong with the nail per se, but as time goes on--and time goes one because HK is LONG--I find it increasingly boring.
Talking about boring, HK loves to pad. Everything in HK, and I mean literally everything, is too long. Prime example: there's this underground section with shielding enemies. You stand and wait in front of them until they drop their guard and attack. You have to hit them when they drop their guard and run away. I've counted: At nail lvl 2 or whatever I was at, they took 18 hits. 18 fucking hits. This adds absolutely nothing, it's just padding for the sake of it. Wouldn't be a problem if it was only one of them, but there are 3 or 4 more of them in the same fucking room. I'm sorry, but there's no way around the fact that this is horrible game design.
This is a common topic in the game, you keep slashing samey enemies with the same nail for fucking forever, and you're using the exact same weapon through the entire game. Most bosses having more or less the same horizontal charge attack you're supposed to jump over with a nail strike down doesn't exactly give me a feeling of variety.
And, yeah, boss battles. Did I mention HK loves to pad? They're just not interesting enough to go on as long as they do. Soul Master is a good example. A mildly entertaining boss, but so much time goes on with you trying to hit him while he's just teleporting away all the time. What's the point of this? If it's not just padding?
Checkpoints. Good games like Mega Man and Bloodstained have checkpoints before bosses, which is especially important if they have several phases that you need to go through a few times before you figure them out and beat them. HK however, more often than not, has the checkpoint on the other side of the area. Why? What are you doing? What were you thinking?
And then there's HK's map guy crap. Some of the areas are fucking huge, like the City of Tears. I can't recall how often I had to revisit that until I found the fucking map guy, because it's all huge and samey. For whatever reason I don't understand they did this thing that you don't have a map until you find map guy, forcing me to "explore" new areas in a very systematic manner so I wouldn't miss him. I felt forced to stick to extremely systematical manners of exploration in order to avoid not finding him, instead of just naturally exploring like in most other games. What's the point of this and why is it in the game? It just sucks.
And then, things like spending an ability point just on having yourself visible on the map. What's the fucking point of this?? That's the most basic commodity you can think of, but HK makes it a luxury. I don't see how this adds anything, it only reduces.
And then there's the magic pool which I can't use for fireballs or whatever because that drains the same pool I need for regeneration.
I do know I'm alone with this, but honestly I don't think Hollow Knight is a good game.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 18:29:03 GMT
What are your thoughts on Dark Souls? It sounds like you don't like it because of its Dark Souls leanings. I'd classify it more as a 2D Soulslike more than a platformer like MM. The map is a good example - you never get maps in Dark Souls (and this has never been an issue for me). I think it's suppose to add to the feeling of isolation and being lost. Even when you do get the map, I don't think it's a great one (in HK) Personally I like the screen shake and pauses because it adds to game feel. It just feels good to hit things. Again, having to travel back to your corpse is very much a Dark Souls mechanic There's a trinket thing that increases the speed your magic pool fills up from attacking enemies which helps in regards to the fireball issue You seem like a bit of a purist, so I can understand why you'd prefer the more straight forward gameplay and feel of Bloodstained. HK is a much slower, more atmospheric game than Bloodstained, which is a straight action game really. I don't think they're really that comparable
I'd say I have to be in the mood to play HK but I could easily just put something like Bloodstained on anytime really and play it for hours. Except not Bloodstained, because it's an ugly game. DS Castlevania collection, one day
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 18:40:41 GMT
Yeah they're not that comparable and actually it wasn't my intention to pit them against each other. HK is just a game I don't like and Bloodstained is one I do, and everyone should be fine playing whatever they prefer. I was mostly trying to explain why I didn't enjoy HK, unlike everyone else it seems.
As for Dark Souls, I never played it. I played Demons Souls after the first boss or so but I hated it because it was so fucking slow and sluggish. I like my controls to be tight and immediate, and Demons Souls was just the opposite. Played Nioh for about 90 minutes but abandoned because I wasn't having an ounce of fun. That just doesn't seem like my kind of game.
As for "slow", Bloodstained feels slower to me than HK does. But then again, I'm talking about Bloodstained in hard mode, which I'm certain the game is built around. If I compare HK to Bloodstained (hard), HK suits a much more aggressive play style.
And yeah, they're not really comparable, very different games. I've seen people comparing them and saying Bloodstained is a total piece of trash and HK is 10 times better, maybe that's a kneejerk reaction to that on my part.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 18:45:51 GMT
Yeah they're not that comparable and actually it wasn't my intention to pit them against each other. HK is just a game I don't like and Bloodstained is one I do, and everyone should be fine playing whatever they prefer. I was mostly trying to explain why I didn't enjoy HK, unlike everyone else it seems. As for Dark Souls, I never played it. I played Demons Souls after the first boss or so but I hated it because it was so fucking slow and sluggish. Played Nioh for about 90 minutes but abandoned because I wasn't having an ounce of fun. That just doesn't seem like my kind of game. As for "slow", Bloodstained feels slower to me than HK does. But then again, I'm talking about Bloodstained in hard mode, which I'm certain the game is built around. If I compare HK to Bloodstained (hard), HK suits a much more aggressive play style. And yeah, they're not really comparable, very different games. I've seen people comparing them and saying Bloodstained is a total piece of trash and HK is 10 times better, maybe that's a kneejerk reaction to that on my part. I think the lack of love of Dark Souls explains a lot of why you can't appreciate it. A lot of its design is informed by it
I do think Bloodstained is a good game and if I had a way to play it on anything other than a Switch, I'd try the hard mode. I don't think it's a game I'd want to play over and over though because I just don't like the look of it. The character models especially look pretty bad
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 18:51:32 GMT
Graphics are great but not the end of all, and I fully concede that HK is prettier than Bloodstained. In fact, Bloodstained has a lot of issues, some of which HK is better at. But to me, Bloodstained is a flawed gem just like Skyrim. I can get mad about the shit it does wrong, but I still love it anyway.
edit: also, very little screen shake.
edit 2: I actually didn't mind much about screen shake the first few games. But it's so ubiquitous and pervasive in modern 2D games I've developed an allergy to it. Like, QTE's didn't bother me that much back in the days of God of War, but with time and repeated exposure I learned to hate them. Bloom didn't bother me the first time they did it in the PS3 era, but everyone throwing it at you like there's no tomorrow made me hostile. Similar with spamming VFX and screen shake in modern 2D games.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 18:59:13 GMT
Have you played DK Tropical Freeze?
I've been playing that and it's an incredibly pretty game. Amazing to play as well. Think it might be one of the best platform games I've played. Near the end now sadly
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 19:02:14 GMT
Have you played DK Tropical Freeze? No, the newest Nintendo console I own is a Wii |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 19:06:35 GMT
That's a shame! It's solid. NSMB U, Mario 3D World and Oddysee are all great platformers as well
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 19:15:21 GMT
That said, I must commend Bloodstained for making backtracking meaningful. Even in the big old granddaddy Super Metroid, backtracking ain't gain you nothing. Axiom Verge? Nothing. In HK you earn money, which is kind of neat. But in Bloodstained, you get loot and shards and you level up from experience. I think this game is bloody excellent at making backtracking worthwhile, and it is excellent at many other minor details I tend to whine about in other games. I think it's a very intelligently designed game, sadly hampered by other niggles, most of which are about graphics.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 19:27:33 GMT
I do enjoy the RPG elements in the Iga Castlevania games. It feels good to know you're always doing something, adding to something. Have to say I thought the bosses in Bloodstained were pretty weak
Really enjoyed the NES style Bloodstained game they made. Didn't finish the second one though - think there was a section later on that I just found too annoying and got sick of it
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 19:40:07 GMT
Boss fights in Bloodstained are shit, easily the worst part of the game. Some are ok, but most are crap. I'm not a fan of HK, but it certainly beats Bloodstained in terms of boss fights.
That said, none of them beat the one series that gets boss fights right... Mega Man. After playing MM9 and MM11, boss battles in any other game just feel shit.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 19:45:03 GMT
That reminds me, I still haven't finished 9. I got stuck on a screen in the first Wiley stage where there's beams firing across from both sides and I couldn't work out a path through. Going to go back to it after DKTF
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 19:47:12 GMT
Either be very quick with rush coil, or use concrete shot
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Post by captaincrumb on Oct 7, 2021 21:12:16 GMT
That reminds me, I still haven't finished 9. I got stuck on a screen in the first Wiley stage where there's beams firing across from both sides and I couldn't work out a path through. Going to go back to it after DKTF MM9 is another long-termer I finally managed to finish, recently. What I did at that point was, as soon as the screen scrolls up and you are on the ladder, hold right and do an r.coil as fast as possible. Start climbing before rcoil even touches the ground. If you are quick, you can climb to the top of the ladder and launch off of rcoil before the left hand beam reaches you. Rcoil gives you just enough height to reach the middle ladder, which is how you progress. If you go for the left ladder first you can collect an E tank, but you'd have to come back down and repeat the move again to move on. It's one which took a bit of practise initially, but is almost 100 percent repeatable once you get the hang of it. Sadly, it's far from the most challenging moves of that series of stages ... |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 21:18:28 GMT
I was pretty sure that's how I did it last time (Rush) but just wasn't getting it. I'm sure I was just tired or something and my reflexes are definitely not slowing down
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 21:24:36 GMT
Rush coil is the quickest way but also very risky. You have only a tiny few frames to pull it off. The slower but safer way is freezing the beams with concrete shot so you can step on them.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 21:27:21 GMT
I already beat all the bosses with the buster. Always the hard way
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Post by RadicalRex on Oct 7, 2021 21:33:31 GMT
Rush coil then. And don't forget to get the underwater e-tank in the next level.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 7, 2021 23:06:11 GMT
No worries! It was not remembering that you can fire off Rush as soon as you enter the screen that was the issue. And don't forget to get the underwater e-tank in the next level Was this a challenge? If it's the one where you have to jump all the spike pits while not hitting them ones above, I did that first time 
The boss got me though. Too tired to deal with the laser in the last phase tonight. The jumping in MM feels really good though |
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