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Post by cristar on Apr 21, 2023 8:24:35 GMT
The defence was bad. We know that at least 2 or 3 of them should probably be going, and we also know that De Gea can't actually play with the ball at his feet.
Doesn't excuse the rest of the team. A midfield of Casemiro, Eriksen, Sabitzer should be doing better than that. Allowed Sevilla to control the entire match basically. And an attack of Sancho, Antony, Martial should do better too. three 70 - 90 million players right there. They were absolutely crap. Of those 6 I think Antony is the only player you keep long term. You keep Casemiro as long as you can too obviously.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 8:29:24 GMT
De Gea just doesn't suit the way we play anymore. He shits himself as much as Maguire does. He's been a great player for us but it is time to move on otherwise we'll concede more goals like the first last night. His passes constantly put the team under unnecessary pressure, we just usually have the defense to cope with it.
Maguire is awful though, he cannot cope with the pressure at all. He's been in his head since his own goal the week before against Sevilla. You can see on his face how nervous he is.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 21, 2023 8:30:06 GMT
Yeah our general play certainly didn't help. Beaten to every second ball, stray passes that would make Maidenhead FC blush. Sancho refusing to track back. Martial getting injured again within minutes of Rashford coming on.
I was basically waiting for Rashford to get injured again for icing on the cake...Shaw did that instead.
It was a complete clusterfuck...catalysed by our defence.
That said Seville ran their fucking arses off so Kudos to them. They clearly wanted it more which is another disgrace.
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Post by baihu1983 on Apr 21, 2023 8:32:11 GMT
Whenever I see stuff about Maguire it just reminds me that De Gea picked kicking the ball out rather than passing to a very open Maguire
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kal
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Post by kal on Apr 21, 2023 8:33:15 GMT
Ederson has completely changed what’s expected of a top keeper now. A few years back the likes of Lloris and De Gea were considered world class because they’re amazing shot stoppers, but that’s the absolute bare minimum expectation now. They have to not only be good on the ball with both feet, but able to ping a perfect pass 70 yards to split a defence. The current up coming crop are basically outfield players that can make a save.
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Post by cristar on Apr 21, 2023 8:38:15 GMT
Yeah, with the ease and carelessness players like Eriksen and others were giving the ball away in midfield, must have thought prime Rio and Vidic were in defense.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Apr 21, 2023 8:40:16 GMT
Our midfield was poor generally. I thought Eriksson and Sabitzer didn't look fit and Casemiro looked rusty. The defence was really bad (Wan Bissaka and Dalot as well as Maguire) and only really Antony did anything much at all when he got the ball. No idea why Sancho feels the need to turn back and slow down play every time he gets the ball and his lack of tracking back really doesn't help the system. Martial spent far too much time dropping deep which meant there was no one for the wingers to play forward to and the ball kept on getting turned over.
Sevilla were better all over the pitch. It really should be a wakeup that we're outplayed like that by a team 13th in La Liga.
I suspect that it'll be more of the same next year, because we aren't going to by buying lots and lots of massively expensive players in the summer, especially as even if we do get State Owners, it won't be in time to change FFP for this summer window. It's still a long road back.
That said, this season has been far better than recent ones. At least we've played like we give a shit, more often that not and won a trophy. Hopefully, next will be better, but I don't hold out lots of hope. At least we have a coach who looks like he can coach and a core of a side who can play a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 8:42:40 GMT
That mistake happening first 5 mins set the tone. Plus Sevilla and the atmosphere were great, it was just one of those nights.
Awful to watch, but hopefully helps ETH be brutal with the squad in the summer. Our issues with a lot of players is that we think being loyal is hanging onto them well passed their sell by date.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 8:47:45 GMT
I am optimistic with the team and manager going forward though. You can see a clear improvement, we just didn't have the squad to go so deep in multiple competitions and it's starting to show with the injuries. He clearly didn't think the back ups could do the job so our main core of players are knackered or injured.
Some quality additions in the summer will help.
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Post by simple on Apr 21, 2023 8:49:42 GMT
De Gea just doesn't suit the way we play anymore. He shits himself as much as Maguire does. He's been a great player for us but it is time to move on otherwise we'll concede more goals like the first last night. His passes constantly put the team under unnecessary pressure, we just usually have the defense to cope with it. Maguire is awful though, he cannot cope with the pressure at all. He's been in his head since his own goal the week before against Sevilla. You can see on his face how nervous he is. I think the big difference between De Gea and Maguire is that De Gea isn’t a good fit for the system but Maguire is actually just bad. In general De Gea seems to make ball at feet problems but can do the rest of his job but Maguire feels like he has every kind of error is his locker so you can never predict how he’ll screw up, just that its going to happen and be costly. I know which player I’d trust in a Newcastle shirt if we were buying. |
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Apr 21, 2023 9:01:09 GMT
As mentioned keepers are expected to take part in the start of transition, effectively becoming a ball playing defender at that stage, not sure at De Gea's age he can make that change. I wouldn't extend his contract myself, it such a big way teams play these days, as such shot stoppers only are a dying breed. Hard decision, but Pep made it when he replaced Hart with Ederson. Watch a lot of Celtic and Hart still drops some clangers to this day but has got slightly better in his defence, but then we play the likes of Ross County  |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Apr 21, 2023 9:07:27 GMT
Too many chokers in the team overall really. We can laugh at Arsenal all we want but we're leagues and leagues worse than them for it. We see this time and time again. Any degree of pressure whatsoever and they will always revert to type.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 21, 2023 9:11:08 GMT
Oh we might be expected to win this competition....nope can't do it. Oh well, we didn't try.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Apr 21, 2023 9:14:35 GMT
Too many chokers in the team overall really. We can laugh at Arsenal all we want but we're leagues and leagues worse than them for it. We see this time and time again. Any degree of pressure whatsoever and they will always revert to type. Not a Manyoo fan watched the 1st half, it looked like a B team out there. Wan Bissaka hasn't progressed much at all, good defender but limited everywhere else, Erickson looked way short of form, Maguire was Maguire, don't see the point of Sancho, Martial blows hot occasionally but mainly cold. Agree, most of the people in that team need to be moved on. Tough to do. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 9:22:12 GMT
Eriksen and Sabitzer were both brought back into the team from recent injuries and Casemiro looks the type to need a few games to get up to speed after time out. Sancho looks shit scared and deflated like Rashford did last season, it's very worrying.
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kal
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Post by kal on Apr 21, 2023 9:29:12 GMT
Sevilla may only be 13th in La Liga but they absolutely own the EL. Their confidence is so insanely high at this point in that competition I wouldn’t read too much into that performance. It’s like playing Madrid in the CL, it’s just become its own thing at this point.
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Post by simple on Apr 21, 2023 9:33:02 GMT
Sounds like someone wants to sign Maguire this summer
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Post by Dougs on Apr 21, 2023 9:37:16 GMT
As mentioned keepers are expected to take part in the start of transition, effectively becoming a ball playing defender at that stage, not sure at De Gea's age he can make that change. I wouldn't extend his contract myself, it such a big way teams play these days, as such shot stoppers only are a dying breed. Hard decision, but Pep made it when he replaced Hart with Ederson. Watch a lot of Celtic and Hart still drops some clangers to this day but has got slightly better in his defence, but then we play the likes of Ross County Yep, agree with this. Keepers are now expected to start the moves so distribution is so important. You do of course also need centre backs and defensive midfielders capable of receiving the ball under pressure. |
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on Apr 21, 2023 9:41:01 GMT
It's a freak result that shouldn't be counted...as well as that 4-0 against Brentford...as well as that 7-0 against Liverpool.
Part of me doesn't even want to make it to the FA Cup final for the possibility we could have a hand in gifting City the treble. I dont see us stopping them, not with the injuries we have. But if you also told me at the start of the season we'd be in the top 4 with a trophy, I'd bite your hand off considering last season.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 21, 2023 9:43:21 GMT
7-0 was the freak result. 4-0 was a wake up call as was yesterday.
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kal
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Post by kal on Apr 21, 2023 9:47:11 GMT
Sounds like someone wants to sign Maguire this summer I’m quite certain he’ll do a Jonny Evans, and go and have a very successful slightly below the radar career elsewhere in the PL. |
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Post by Resident Knievel on Apr 21, 2023 9:51:39 GMT
We can laugh at Arsenal all we want Roger |
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Apr 21, 2023 9:53:31 GMT
Sounds like someone wants to sign Maguire this summer I’m quite certain he’ll do a Jonny Evans, and go and have a very successful slightly below the radar career elsewhere in the PL. Sold to Spurs for £4.50 and a packet of crisps. Next up the keeper with the best clean sheet record in the league... |
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kal
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Post by kal on Apr 21, 2023 9:54:51 GMT
I wish we were below the radar.
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Post by muddyfunster on Apr 21, 2023 9:56:45 GMT
I'd go 70/30 blame to Maguire on that first goal. The fact that Maguire calls for the ball, the fact that De Gea does actually make an ok pass into feet. A slightly faster pass would have made it easier for Maguire to turn but it wasn't exactly a rugby-style hospital pass. Pretty clear Sevilla were targeting Maguire and although they cut off the easy pass to the RB, Maguire had space behind him so only had to turn and he could have done one of his strutting (but largely ineffective) forward runs that persuaded Man Utd to pay £80m for him in the first place.
A lot depends on Ten Haag's instructions, if he'd told his team to play out then I don't think De Gea's done much wrong here.
Maguire's out of confidence and got his body shape wrong and then took a bad touch to make it worse. De Gea could/should have spread it to the RB, but didn't have much time himself and needed a shout or point which is what he got from Maguire.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 10:02:26 GMT
Maguire suits a defence with 3 cb's like England. He'd be best off going to a club that plays that way.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Apr 21, 2023 10:04:01 GMT
Sevilla may only be 13th in La Liga but they absolutely own the EL. Their confidence is so insanely high at this point in that competition I wouldn’t read too much into that performance. It’s like playing Madrid in the CL, it’s just become its own thing at this point. This is true. It wasn't intended as shade towards Sevilla, just that United still have a ways to go, much further than some of our fans seemed to think recently. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Apr 21, 2023 10:04:42 GMT
As mentioned keepers are expected to take part in the start of transition, effectively becoming a ball playing defender at that stage, not sure at De Gea's age he can make that change. I wouldn't extend his contract myself, it such a big way teams play these days, as such shot stoppers only are a dying breed. Hard decision, but Pep made it when he replaced Hart with Ederson. Watch a lot of Celtic and Hart still drops some clangers to this day but has got slightly better in his defence, but then we play the likes of Ross County Yep, agree with this. Keepers are now expected to start the moves so distribution is so important. You do of course also need centre backs and defensive midfielders capable of receiving the ball under pressure. Exactly this, with modern high pressing football the GK -> CB -> DM interplay and technical security is critical. If the level drops in these positions even a little it hurts ball progression and also invites pressure from the opposition. Teammates sense the insecurity so drop back a bit, take fewer risks, play slower passes which further compounds the problem. Passes become more telegraphed and you get easier to press, so it becomes even harder to regather composure. It's the opposite of marginal gains, it's cumulative marginal losses and it becomes hard to break the spiral. You're almost better off pragmatically abandoning the system altogether at a certain point, but then how do you ever expect to develop a squad that can cope over a season if the subs don't get to practice playing the same way as the first XI? It's tricky. |
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Post by cristar on Apr 21, 2023 10:08:22 GMT
Yeah, I don't think that much is needed to be read into the result. It was complete wank, but that team has likely never played together before. The team that got to the final under Ole had a bunch of those shit bags in it too, but they performed better because they were actually playing week in week out. You can't put a shitter like Maguire into the team when he hasn't played all season and expect anything other than absolute garbage.
It's certainly a worry in terms of squad though, and ETH's ability to rotate has been shit all season because his options are all sub par. Hence a long list of crocks.
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Post by muddyfunster on Apr 21, 2023 10:12:46 GMT
Too many chokers in the team overall really. We can laugh at Arsenal all we want but we're leagues and leagues worse than them for it. We see this time and time again. Any degree of pressure whatsoever and they will always revert to type. I still don't think it's choking if you are forced to put out a weakened side and play worse, even when Man Utd do it. If you had your first XI and lost the plot sure, but despite the price tag of those replacements they are simply not as good at football so it puts the whole team under a bit more pressure and makes controlling the game less likely and losing more likely. Fine margins at this level. |
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