lexw
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Post by lexw on Nov 12, 2021 9:48:18 GMT
A somehwat prominent feminist in Sweden recently published a book where she argues against parts of the trans thing. I haven't read it, and nor will I, but I saw an interview with her and she had two soundbites she kept repeating, one was that apparently in some study in america they found that a lot of people (I think it was a rather small group though) denied gender correction became gay a few years later and were perfectly satisfied with that. The swede argued that this meant a lot of trans people were actually "just gay people in denial" which I found rather strange. Is transitioning less of a stigma than being gay all of a sudden? No idea. Her other soundbite was that she was worried that trans women are taking over the feminist movement. Both are pretty standard TERF talking points. The first claim is where this whole thing comes from really. Some ageing lesbians noticed that there were less butch lesbians among younger people (like under 40) and more trans men and NB people. Most lesbians shrugged at this, but minority decided they were being genocided or something, and it was time to "fight back" (against people making different choices to them for themselves...). Unfortunately some prominent people in this minority were mates with JKR in the UK. So they seized on extremist 1970s feminism (some of it basically calling for men to be deleted, and certainly calling trans people deviants who needed to be suppressed) and propaganda from a far right movements in the US to push the issue, and ensure butch lesbianism continued. The whole "denied transition and says is happy" thing is obviously trash on multiple levels. Every major study which involves real sample sizes and not anecdotes contradicts it hard, as does the massive suicide rate of people denied transition. It's a lot like how anti abortion types can always dig out someone who regretted their abortion to claim no-one should be allowed them at all. But it's the dream these nutters think justifies attempting to interfere in other people's lives, that of "saving them" from evil people trying to "trans" them and totally coincidentally by "saving" them they're making more people who might potentially bang them. Totally just a coincidence that. The second is pure perception. Trans women often had faced great adversity and are already activists and often have a particularly sharp picture of the difference in how a man is treated compared to a woman (for hopefully obvious reasons). So have been quite loud/firm against claims equality has been secured. They're a tiny minority of feminists voices but frankly transphobic anxiety about them being allowed to speak at all lead to ludicrous claims like the one you're pointing out. I think there's a particular kind of academic 40 or 50 something feminist who is particularly offended because their life hasn't been all that blighted by sexism and they feel trans women are showing them up. But that's the sort of thing no-one is going to openly say. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 12, 2021 9:49:33 GMT
Its like this week Lorraine had a professional TERF on and gave her a surprisingly hard time, calling out that she hadnt been cancelled because she quit her job and was doing the media rounds to tell everyone how she had been cancelled and so on.
Subsequently, there were a ton of tweets @lorraine asking 'So what about this person?' and linking a case to a sex pest who was trans. Its all the same shit as the gay and race panics of the past. So what about that person? They are fucked in the head. Theres one trans pervert so all trans people are perverts? gtfooh with that 60s small town america bullshit.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Nov 12, 2021 10:44:26 GMT
To be fair the amount of intolerance a lot of gay people have towards bisexuals is higher than it should be too. "Pick a lane" is a refrain my bi friends have heard *a lot* from gay people. Yeah, my friends boyfriend is a bit dismissive of bi people, calling them 'tourists' because, in his experience, every bi person he has ever met has only ever been in serious relationships with the opposite sex and has just sucked a dick or made out with another girl while they were drunk. 'You girls need bi-visibility because you all have boyfriends' *snap snap*. Ugh, yeah I've heard that as well. Basically "you're doing it wrong" again. I find it a bit odd when you hear someone who's gay absolutely repulsed by the idea of a vagina or something similar. I'm always thinking "wow you're so hardcore, well done..?" |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 12, 2021 10:56:23 GMT
I dont want to put words in his mouth but I think its more like the dave chapelle thing. Gays have it harder than Bi people so fuck them, rather than disliking what they do. He is very involved with the local scene and pride events and I do think he genuinely see's Bi people as tourists in something he lives everyday.
That said, he does call me a breeder so maybe not.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Nov 12, 2021 13:22:34 GMT
It's a similar thing that happens with mixed race people, where they aren't seen as "black" enough by some in the black community, and they don't feel like they're fully accepted in the white community either.
They're fucked either way, no pun intended regarding bi folk....
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Post by Jambowayoh on Nov 12, 2021 13:27:57 GMT
It's a similar thing that happens with mixed race people, where they aren't seen as "black" enough by some in the black community, and they don't feel like they're fully accepted in the white community either. They're fucked either way, no pun intended regarding bi folk.... That would be me...but I'm not half white. |
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Nov 12, 2021 13:34:30 GMT
We've got people of indigenous heritage here, who have fair skin. And it's pretty fucked, because they grow up in poverty (as do a lot of indigenous folk, unfortunately), but when they apply for indigenous grants and stuff people are all "BUT YOU'RE WHITE YOU CHEATER".
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Nov 12, 2021 13:40:07 GMT
Where I struggle is the "see this person as X gender" thing. I've got a friend who is female and wants to be known and seen as a man. I can call her the new name but to me she'll always be this woman I know.
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Nov 12, 2021 14:31:54 GMT
We've got people of indigenous heritage here, who have fair skin. And it's pretty fucked, because they grow up in poverty (as do a lot of indigenous folk, unfortunately), but when they apply for indigenous grants and stuff people are all "BUT YOU'RE WHITE YOU CHEATER". Yup. my friend is 1/4 (or more) Native American, and there are generations of poverty and racist shit (and passing) on that side of her family (including slavery after slavery was made illegal). She tans very dark and used to get called racist names as a child, but she has to avoid the sun due to a burn as a teen and so is pale. She didn't even get to apply for the grants because half her family had sworn the rest to secrecy over this "shameful secret" and no-one actually admitted it until the genealogy guy on the other side of the family blew it wide open (he's on the spectrum and didn't even get that it would be an issue, cool guy though). To be fair it's most often white people who try to police this (or, hilariously, the odd POC, but if so they're inevitabily from a wealthy/privileged background and you can tell there's some jealousy of the gross "oppression Olympics" kind). In fact I'd say there's a strong correlation between being privileged and trying to police that kind of thing. |
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jono62
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Post by jono62 on Nov 12, 2021 14:35:01 GMT
It's a similar thing that happens with mixed race people, where they aren't seen as "black" enough by some in the black community, and they don't feel like they're fully accepted in the white community either. They're fucked either way, no pun intended regarding bi folk.... That would be me...but I'm not half white. Same, although I am half white. |
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Post by Tonka (🐑,🪤) on Nov 12, 2021 14:38:51 GMT
I guess my privilege as a cis hetro male shines through when I just can't see what the problem is with people changing sex or having diferent sexual preferences (as long as it's not harming others, like catholic priests). I can't see TERFs as being anything but petty. But then again, I've nothing to lose. No skin in the game what so ever.
Also, I'm super white. I clap on one and three, like Apple computers, and U2.
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Nov 12, 2021 14:44:21 GMT
Where I struggle is the "see this person as X gender" thing. I've got a friend who is female and wants to be known and seen as a man. I can call her the new name but to me she'll always be this woman I know. Why always? Are you unable to change how you see people generally? Like a guy fucks up, goes to jail but reforms, truly, and to you he's a shitty from forever? Or a buddy makes out he's a real ladies man, but later comes out as gay, will he always be straight to you? Someone is totally drunken party boy and then settles down, has kids, and so on, you'll still on think of him as Party Boy Steve and constantly be thinking of stuff he did twenty years ago? I ask because a lot of people say "can't" about this sort of thing when they mean "I refuse to make an effort to change how I think of that person" or because they have some kind of emotional deal where they were attached to that person being a specific gender. Neither is a real can't. It's a won't with an excuse. On the other hand there are people who literally cannot update who people are. Many of us have that mate from college who still seems to think we're all exactly who we were ten or twenty or more years ago, and maybe gets mad when we're not. The wife of one of my friends finally stopped being like that at 42 lol and actually started realizing people were adults, I think only because her kids are growing up. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 12, 2021 14:50:08 GMT
I think the short answer is, men can't be trusted not to piss and shit all over the seat and floor of a public toilet. From what I've heard, womens toilets are much, much worse |
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Post by Tonka (🐑,🪤) on Nov 12, 2021 14:51:30 GMT
They're not. I've snuck into plenty as a teen when there was a line to the guys one and not to the ladies.
/deviant
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JYM60
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Post by JYM60 on Nov 12, 2021 16:49:27 GMT
Girls toilets in our school were far worse. They were always closed. Girls constantly were pissing and shitting over the floor according to other girls.
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Post by skalpadda on Nov 12, 2021 17:48:24 GMT
A somehwat prominent feminist in Sweden recently published a book where she argues against parts of the trans thing. Who? I'm curious since I haven't really seen much public debate or discussion about trans stuff here beyond surgery on teenagers (a genuinely difficult subject that I'm very happy to leave to experts). Haven't noticed much TERFing, but then again I haven't been paying much attention. |
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Post by Tonka (🐑,🪤) on Nov 12, 2021 18:05:32 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2021 18:23:06 GMT
I think the short answer is, men can't be trusted not to piss and shit all over the seat and floor of a public toilet. From what I've heard, womens toilets are much, much worse As an ex pub landlord I can ensure you women are much much worse. Men's toilets are covered in poss and shit. Women are the same but you get to add in menstrual blood, tampons stuck to ceilings and often a lot more puke. |
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Post by dfunked on Nov 12, 2021 18:46:31 GMT
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Post by Danno on Nov 12, 2021 19:09:09 GMT
Eamonn Holmes is apparently off to GB News (remember them?). Always had him down as 'Ignorantly slightly racist uncle' rather than 'fucking racist possibly pedo uncle'
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Nov 12, 2021 19:20:09 GMT
I caught the end of one of those bargain hunt with celebs shows and Eamonn Holmes was on it, and he genuinely came across as the most miserable and spiteful fucker.
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Lukus
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Post by Lukus on Nov 12, 2021 19:22:27 GMT
The thing about Eamonn Holmes is, he's very, very thick.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 12, 2021 19:27:48 GMT
Speaking of washed-up has-beens, apparently Graham Linehan is behind this doozy: gendercriticalcomingoutday.org/So brave! So very, *very* brave! (Also, buy our shitty merch.) Of all the hills on which to die. |
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Post by 😎 on Nov 12, 2021 19:33:01 GMT
Jesus, they even basically say to use dog whistles to “identify” yourself.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 12, 2021 19:34:38 GMT
Jesus, they even basically say to use dog whistles to “identify” yourself. Yeah, what. That whole site is so weird like they're some sort of underground oppressed movement, with merch |
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 12, 2021 19:38:38 GMT
Jesus, they even basically say to use dog whistles to “identify” yourself. Exactly! It's just like all the other alt-right b.s., from "Let's go Brandon" to the 'Okay' gesture and back again. At least own your shit and stop hiding behind catchphrases and hand gestures. |
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Post by Danno on Nov 12, 2021 19:48:57 GMT
I like how they're insisting it is an "Ideology" and framing that as a bad thing, whilst they literally promote their ideology, which is at best a very shitty thing that someone has eaten and then shat out again.
Actually, I don't like that.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Nov 12, 2021 19:53:50 GMT
There's a website that's going to get ddos'ed in the near future
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Post by Danno on Nov 12, 2021 19:56:09 GMT
Speaking of washed-up has-beens, apparently Graham Linehan is behind this doozy: gendercriticalcomingoutday.org/So brave! So very, *very* brave! (Also, buy our shitty merch.) Of all the hills on which to die. Has he done *anything* since the IT Crowd other than bang this drum? Seems like a poor way of dealing with writer's block. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 12, 2021 19:58:45 GMT
Surely he's too deep into this now for any legitimate work to get off the ground
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