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Post by muddyfunster on Feb 10, 2024 21:41:59 GMT
Didn't watch it live but from the replays looked grounded, but I couldn't tell if he was on the line or short. On balance I'd expect it to be given unless the referee's initial verdict was no try because it was short.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 10, 2024 22:21:20 GMT
The referee's initial verdict was that the ball had been held up over the line, hence no try had been scored.
As soon as he said that, I had a bad feeling about it, as clear evidence of a grounding would be needed to overturn his on-field decision; however, I really do think that enough evidence was there, and the try should have been given.
All too often in these situations, the replays are inconclusive because you can't even see the ball amid the pile of bodies - that wasn't the case on this occasion.
Even the referee started to walk back his initial opinion based on the replays he was seeing, before being turned around again by the TMO.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 10, 2024 22:25:52 GMT
Yeah the ref chat was "it goes off a foot and is then grounded"... they even thought it was grounded and anyone with eyes can see it grounded. Just weird.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 13, 2024 13:10:20 GMT
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 13, 2024 16:08:57 GMT
Why's it always us? Only other time I remember World Rugby admitting a screw up was the 2015 QF when Joubert fouled up that penalty. |
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Post by Danno on Feb 13, 2024 16:25:04 GMT
WR admit to cock ups at every World Cup. E.g. Knock on missed in the final last year.
I fundentally disagree with it. We all know refs make mistakes/things get missed. The governing body should be publicly backing them all the way unless there's misconduct involved, particularly when refs are retiring because of abuse from cunts online, including a certain coach whose name I will not utter here. If they aren't performing then, like any other employee, set improvement targets etc. Launching a bus at them via the media is really shitty.
The decision on Sat was ridiculous but was taken in accordance with the laws to the nth degree (on field no try, so needs to be footage of ball on floor). It's the law that needs reviewing in this instance, not the officials imo.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 13, 2024 17:01:44 GMT
I completely agree with the need to safeguard referees from all forms of abuse, both without (keyboard warriors on social media) and within (R****e E*****s).
I also agree that World Rugby shouldn't dole out mea culpas like candy at Halloween; that forensic post-game analysis of every single error made by a given referee is both undesirable and unreasonable; that the vast majority of refereeing disciplinary matters should be handled behind closed doors; and that wherever common sense dictates, laws should be reviewed alongside the officials' performances.
Every once in a while, though, a fuck-up is so egregious that the least World Rugby can do is hold up its hand and say, "Yeah, we got that one wrong." For me, Saturday's 'Schrödinger's try' debacle qualifies as such.
The referee and TMO don't deserve to be thrown to the wolves over it, though, and anyone who feels at all inclined to attack them via the safe anonymity of Twitter needs a damn good slap.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 13, 2024 19:51:19 GMT
Yeah I'm with Ulythium It's so bad some sort of clarity/statement is warranted. But also I'm not going to go after a ref ever. This is also presumably part of the "usual" back and forth with the referees after the game Scotland have just done the slightly dick move of leaking it to the press. But I'm still furious so am fine with it. |
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 13, 2024 19:59:49 GMT
Also I do understand the current laws and protocols, they're either wrong or something has gone badly wrong.
1. Berry should have got closer in to look at it and asked Try/No Try (rather than the confirm/deny an on field decision) if he couldn't actually quite tell
2. The TMO should never have said "Then it's grounded" out loud, with the white line clearly closer to the camera
They both clearly thought it was a try but that also they somehow weren't allowed to say so. Or said said then backed out.
Either stage 1 was wrong because the wrong question was asked due to a human fuck up. Or the protocols are fucking dumb if both refs are like "yeah that's a try, but computer says no". The on pitch ref should just be able to go "Oh I know what question I asked, but nevermind that's a fucking try"
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 13, 2024 20:01:25 GMT
And apropo of nothing, anyone else going to the Quins Glasgow game?
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 14, 2024 9:58:41 GMT
I'm not a fan of the whole, "On-field decision..." thing myself, as it paints the TMO into a corner from the outset. If the referee is confident enough to make a call one way or the other, stick with it; if not, let the TMO decide.
The current approach constitutes a halfway house that isn't fit for purpose.
It's one thing if a try is scored (or not) during open play, as the range of camera angles available usually allows for a determination to be made by the TMO, one way or the other:
- Was the ball grounded?
- Was the player in touch?
- Was the ball knocked on in the tackle?
Et cetera.
However, it becomes a total clusterfuck when a try is scored (or not) from a pick-and-go move - you've usually got a bunch of massive forwards piled on top of one another, and the TMO ends up playing Spot the Ball amid flying limbs and muddied torsos.
Even with multiple camera angles available, making a decision in these situations is very difficult indeed; having the referee decide where the burden of proof should lie, based upon a real-time viewing of the final play, only makes matters worse.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 14, 2024 13:52:51 GMT
The other thing is that held up now favours the defending side with a goal line drop out not an attacking scrum. So the decision making also ends up that way with these marginal pick and gos. Which seems a bit perverse that ever man and his dog thinks it almost certainly but not definitely got down, so benefit of the doubt swings fully the other way to the defending team. Even though you probably thought they didn't hold it up.
So those laws are interacting in weird ways.
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Post by gibroon on Feb 14, 2024 15:00:53 GMT
Yeah, I was going a bit mental at the ref for Scotlands game, not for the last few minutes but he clearly did his best to not be looking down the line to see the French offside so many times. He was always looking at the blindside while France were blatantly offside in numerous occasions when defending.
The held up ball thing was really annoying and most of the pub were furious but on reflection the next day, although the ball did go on to the ground, there was no way of telling what was pushing the ball down at the time.
Still sucks though.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 14, 2024 18:39:16 GMT
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 14, 2024 18:41:23 GMT
In other rugby news, Louis Lynagh has announced that he'll be leaving Harlequins for Benetton in the summer; he has also been named in a training squad for Italy, prior to their next 6N game.
Having adopted Quins as my new team since Wasps went under, I'll be disappointed to see him go.
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Post by elstoof on Feb 14, 2024 19:30:16 GMT
I guess he doesn’t see a way in to the England set up, but Benetton are a bang average side. Can’t see him making a ton of progress there
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Post by Dougs on Feb 14, 2024 19:41:45 GMT
Ha, the surname has only just dropped.
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Post by Danno on Feb 14, 2024 19:55:12 GMT
His Ma is Italian, so could see him in blue pretty soon
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Post by elstoof on Feb 14, 2024 19:57:24 GMT
Should see him next week, I better Italians are desperate to lock him in with a cap
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 14, 2024 19:59:57 GMT
Another player who was brought into an England training squad by Eddie Jones, didn't get any nearer than that to being capped, and has looked elsewhere instead. (See also: Paolo Odogwu, who now plays for Italy.) Apparently Lynagh Jr. was born in Treviso to an Italian mother - Lynagh Sr. played for Benetton himself, back in the day - which is how he qualifies to play for the Azzurri.
Edit: Danno beat me to the punch on that last part!
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 14, 2024 20:10:31 GMT
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Post by Danno on Feb 14, 2024 21:01:12 GMT
Troll article. Penaud is the best winger in the world atm and he doesn't have a fucking manbun.
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Post by elstoof on Feb 14, 2024 21:27:14 GMT
Daly lol. Not even a top winger in his best years, much better in the centre
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 18, 2024 19:53:55 GMT
Mitchell is out of the Scotland game with a knee injury, and Randall has been drafted in as cover.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 22, 2024 16:07:25 GMT
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Post by Danno on Feb 22, 2024 16:11:14 GMT
Oh right, yeah. Rugby is happening isn't it.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 22, 2024 21:19:39 GMT
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Post by Danno on Feb 22, 2024 22:18:16 GMT
Didn't see Steward getting dropped, but I'm not wholly against it and at least Furbank is both in form and not Daly.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 22, 2024 22:34:16 GMT
I like Steward, but he's very much an 'old reliable' workhorse type (and even his much-vaunted reliability isn't what it once was). Furbank deserves a shot in the 15 shirt.
Surprised to see Care starting ahead of Spencer - as much as I rate Care, he's better deployed off the bench these days.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Feb 23, 2024 20:59:20 GMT
The Furbank selection is genuinely worrying. You mean Finn can't just routinely boot the ball across the pitch with no fear of counter attack until Steward is eventually out of position?
Then again Care.
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