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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 27, 2024 22:29:19 GMT
These Piastri wins are looking worse and worse now. Norris has had all the downside and zero upside from him as a wingman down the line. Yeah by my reckoning, he cost Lando 8pts at Hungary, and then potentially 10pts with that first lap move in Italy. The only time he's actually helped Lando was by easing off to avoid being within 5s in Texas after Lando got that dubious penalty. Even then it's debatable whether there was a genuine risk Lando would have lost the place otherwise.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 27, 2024 22:32:12 GMT
And to describe the turn 7 incident as "they both went off the track". Fuck me. It's rather like when Michael Gove defended Dom Cummings' method of 'testing his eyesight'. You can see he knows exactly how disingenuous he's being.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 27, 2024 22:42:28 GMT
It's exactly like 2021, Max hasn't matured at all. Now that he's actually got someone vaguely challenging him he's back to running them off, rules be damned.
He wasn't the only one racing poorly today, several drivers went over the limit, but Max's T7 job was in a class of one. Just didn't brake and was clearly happy to take Lando out.
The Russell vs Hamilton battle was such a great respectful clean battle lap after lap. They weren't overly polite with some late defending and willingness to run each other wide, but they also didn't risk contact. It's evidently possible in these cars.
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Post by monkman5000 on Oct 28, 2024 9:03:57 GMT
And to describe the turn 7 incident as "they both went off the track". Fuck me. It's rather like when Michael Gove defended Dom Cummings' method of 'testing his eyesight'. You can see he knows exactly how disingenuous he's being. Disingenuous is exactly the word. Little weasel that he is.
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Post by zisssou on Oct 28, 2024 9:16:27 GMT
These Piastri wins are looking worse and worse now. Norris has had all the downside and zero upside from him as a wingman down the line. Yeah by my reckoning, he cost Lando 8pts at Hungary, and then potentially 10pts with that first lap move in Italy. The only time he's actually helped Lando was by easing off to avoid being within 5s in Texas after Lando got that dubious penalty. Even then it's debatable whether there was a genuine risk Lando would have lost the place otherwise. Yeah if you tally up the points using overcutting.com/ then it would make this a lot closer.. even if Lando wins every race now, Max can still finish 3rd, or 4th in a few races.
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 28, 2024 11:53:46 GMT
Can’t see Lando winning more than 1 more tbh. I don’t think the WDC makes it to the final race.
Next season has some serious potential though…before we change the rules again 😄
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Post by zisssou on Oct 28, 2024 12:18:59 GMT
It has the makings of an epic WDC next year.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 28, 2024 14:17:23 GMT
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 28, 2024 14:30:03 GMT
Not sure even Scooby Doo could get to the bottom of this one.
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Post by damagedinc on Oct 28, 2024 14:52:28 GMT
Obviously now it's affecting more than one team they're all banding together. They didn't give a fuck when Max was revving his wheels on Hamiltons head in 2021.
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 28, 2024 15:00:54 GMT
Obviously now it's affecting more than one team they're all banding together. They didn't give a fuck when Max was revving his wheels on Hamiltons head in 2021. That's what happens when you dont leave the space.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 28, 2024 15:23:59 GMT
It's rather like when Michael Gove defended Dom Cummings' method of 'testing his eyesight'. You can see he knows exactly how disingenuous he's being. Disingenuous is exactly the word. Little weasel that he is. www.the-race.com/formula-1/red-bull-f1-telemetry-verstappen-norris-mexican-gp/"There's been a reaction to last weekend, and I think it's very important for the stewards and the drivers to sit down, because if I show you here on the GPS [showing the run down to Turn 4], what you can see is that the orange line is Lando's fastest lap of the grand prix, [from] the point he is braking for Turn 4 and then obviously executing the corner."What you can see is that on lap whatever it was that's been the incident with Max, he is 15km/h faster, and later on the brakes, than his fastest lap of the grand prix."He wouldn't have made the corner. He would have run off track. You can see from his onboard steering."And of course at this point of the race he's got probably 80kg more fuel than at the point that he's done his fastest lap."Again, it's inconceivable that Horner doesn't know full well that he's making a false equivalence. It's superficially convincing to people that don't know motorsport, but insulting to those that do. Just bad faith arguments that seek to manipulate the uninformed and play to their base. To state the relatively obvious: T4 is not an isolated fast corner leading onto a straight, instead it forms the first part of a chicane with T5. On a normal hot lap the optimal line through T4 involves sacrificing speed to be able to stay left on exit and open up T5 for the quickest overall laptime ( can see this on Sainz pole lap). So actually it's reasonable to assume Lando could easily carry 15kph more speed and still make the corner as he was doing the opposite to a typical hotlap. He was sacrificing the T5 exit in favour of just getting to T5 first. Use all the road on exit of T4, rather than half as normal. The media has to be calling Horner out on shit like this. Do basic journalism, don't just write down what someone says, interrogate it.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 28, 2024 15:46:02 GMT
Actually there's an even more basic counterargument:
Max and Lando were effectively going the same speed when the reached the corner apex, except Max's line was far more acute. Max easily stayed on track so why would anyone assume Lando with an easier wider entry couldn't?
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Post by dangerousdave on Oct 28, 2024 16:40:58 GMT
When Horner submitted that arguement, did he accidentally attach a picture of his tiny penis?
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 28, 2024 17:13:33 GMT
When Horner submitted that arguement, did he accidentally attach a picture of his tiny penis? Only just forgot about that, cheers.
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Post by dangerousdave on Oct 28, 2024 19:01:55 GMT
Norris was only a penis’ length in front of Verstappen at the corner, so it doesn’t count!
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Post by damagedinc on Oct 29, 2024 12:47:13 GMT
I think horners penis should be used for all measurement related infringements from now on.
"Sorry mclaren but your rear wing is flexing 1/4 of a horners penis"
"Checo you missed your starting box by 100 horner penis's"
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 31, 2024 11:00:02 GMT
Quite interesting to see how far Red Bull are willing to go to land Colapinto. It does make a lot of sense for everyone involved except Perez. I guess it just depends on what Williams will accept and whether Carlos Slim is also willing to transfer some of his funding to Franco. Apparently he might as there's some sort of sponsor relationship between them already, but if he doesn't the combined costs of dropping Perez and getting Colapinto could be $20m! Hell of a lot to spend on a rookie for your B team.
It's all so ludicrously self inflicted from Red Bull. The way they've managed this is a joke. There were plenty of drivers better than Perez on the market for next year. Sainz especially. Even Bottas is still available as a proven solid number 2 who qualifies well, even if his race pace could be inconsistent, he's a far better package than Perez. Hulkenburg you'd back to take more points than Perez through consistency.
The lesson to take from the success of Colapinto and to some extent Bearman and Lawson is that F2 form is no longer as good a predictor of F1 potential. I guess they've seen Hadjar in their car and don't rate him, but what about Drugovich or Porchaire or Illot who would also be available on the cheap and have done well in FP1 sessions? Why not try to find another Colapinto from the many overlooked F2 talents that they could get if they want a rookie in the Minardi next season?
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 31, 2024 11:26:10 GMT
Quite interesting to see how far Red Bull are willing to go to land Colapinto. It does make a lot of sense for everyone involved except Perez. I guess it just depends on what Williams will accept and whether Carlos Slim is also willing to transfer some of his funding to Franco. Apparently he might as there's some sort of sponsor relationship between them already, but if he doesn't the combined costs of dropping Perez and getting Colapinto could be $20m! Hell of a lot to spend on a rookie for your B team. It's all so ludicrously self inflicted from Red Bull. The way they've managed this is a joke. There were plenty of drivers better than Perez on the market for next year. Sainz especially. Even Bottas is still available as a proven solid number 2 who qualifies well, even if his race pace could be inconsistent, he's a far better package than Perez. Hulkenburg you'd back to take more points than Perez through consistency.The lesson to take from the success of Colapinto and to some extent Bearman and Lawson is that F2 form is no longer as good a predictor of F1 potential. I guess they've seen Hadjar in their car and don't rate him, but what about Drugovich or Porchaire or Illot who would also be available on the cheap and have done well in FP1 sessions? Why not try to find another Colapinto from the many overlooked F2 talents that they could get if they want a rookie in the Minardi next season? Only thing I'd say here is, Perez wasn't a joker prior to RB. He was seen as a reasonably solid midfield runner from memory and came off the back of a win in a Racing Point. He could go fast if the car was decent. Not too dissimilar to Bottas really? Added to that Gasly and Albon have proven themselves decent drivers and worthy of F1 spots since being at RB. I guess the point I'm making is that the second seat at RB seems to be a complete shit show for anyone. So whilst Bottas/Hulkenberg and plenty others look better on paper than Perez at this point, history suggest the same fate probably happens to them? Sainz is a cut above them but not sure much good comes from the Dads windmilling at each other in the back of the pitbox Basically I think anyone good going into that seat would see the team implode on a scale not seen before and anyone average just gets sidelined by the Verstappen/Verstappen Snr/Helmet Marko alliance.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 31, 2024 12:29:40 GMT
Yeah I think that's mostly fair. I guess my point is similar to yours, they've got themselves into this position by not aiming as high as Merc, Ferrari and McLaren do with their choices for the second car and then compounding that with poor management regarding the incumbent.
The only team mate Perez had convincingly established superiority over was Stroll. Otherwise he's been a perfectly decent F1 driver, who had a super power of making one stops work to get results in midfield, which enabled him to often overcome qualifying deficits. Fine, but not what was required at RB. What they really should prioritise in my view is one lap pace. Get someone who can qualify the car vaguely where it should be and worst case they'd finish 8th most weekends.
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 31, 2024 13:47:53 GMT
Totally agree but rightly or wrongly, they've almost always operated that way. Vettel was allowed to ride roughshod over an inferior anyway Webber. Kvyat was a waste of space. Then Verstappen has been out and out number 1 from minute 1 of the season no questions asked to Gasly, Albon and Perez. At least in the Merc dominance years Hamilton and Rosberg went at each other and Bottas was given equal status in the early parts of the season until he inevitably fell away.
Since they became a front runner in 2009 I think they've had 2 seasons where the drivers were treated equally/fairly, Ricciardo's first year in 2014 when Vettel was strangely off form and 2017 when Verstappen was still raw.
It seems the done thing these days that teams have two equal drivers but RB remains a throwback.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 31, 2024 14:56:12 GMT
It's crazy because I don't think Max needs preferential status, he's fast enough to win in a straight fight against almost anyone.
Maybe Red Bull don't trust him. Have we ever seen Max cleanly racing a team mate lap after lap like Ham and Russell on Sunday? Perhaps that's what this ultimately boils down to. Perceived risk that Max will race his team mate the same as he races the others if threatened, which admittedly is a team principle's nightmare. Still seems mad to sacrifice the WCC though, given it's the bigger one for the teams.
Bottas would be ideal for them, really quick over a lap but not threateningly fast on Sundays and compliant in wheel to wheel battles. Would probably leap off the road to avoid Max and grumble quietly and ineffectually to himself after, before repeating the next weekend.
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Post by dangerousdave on Oct 31, 2024 15:43:54 GMT
Couldn’t they not just run a slightly different spec for a 2nd car? To manufacture a performance gap between the two drivers?
I guess if that was ever discovered that would look back on everyone involved.
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Post by mastercracker on Oct 31, 2024 17:08:46 GMT
It's crazy because I don't think Max needs preferential status, he's fast enough to win in a straight fight against almost anyone. Maybe Red Bull don't trust him. Have we ever seen Max cleanly racing a team mate lap after lap like Ham and Russell on Sunday? Perhaps that's what this ultimately boils down to. Perceived risk that Max will race his team mate the same as he races the others if threatened, which admittedly is a team principle's nightmare. Still seems mad to sacrifice the WCC though, given it's the bigger one for the teams. Bottas would be ideal for them, really quick over a lap but not threateningly fast on Sundays and compliant in wheel to wheel battles. Would probably leap off the road to avoid Max and grumble quietly and ineffectually to himself after, before repeating the next weekend. Suppose their argument ie Verstappen x2 would be that with someone decent in the seat you *could* get a 2016 type scenario where with a lot of fortune and circumstance the other bloke snakes a title that you feel is yours. If Redbull had dominated rather than Merc from 2014 to 2021 and their drivers were Hamilton and Rosberg Hamilton wins 8 on the spin imo. As the better driver he’d have just been favoured. It does seem a strange tactic though to throw away potential WCC when you are in effect only there as a marketing tool for a drinks manufacturer.
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Post by muddyfunster on Nov 1, 2024 8:38:03 GMT
Actually I hadn't considered that last point. That could well be part of it.
In a normal F1 team the WCC is bigger than WDC as that's what defines which team did the best job. It determines prize money and employee end of year bonuses as a result.
Perez must be mighty unpopular at Red Bull if they have a similar scheme. Perhaps they genuinely don't prioritise the WCC and pay bonuses based on WDC.
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Post by muddyfunster on Nov 1, 2024 13:05:53 GMT
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Post by A46Matt on Nov 1, 2024 14:58:29 GMT
The Moto GP paddock has a huge Spanish contingent, not just the riders but the teams, they probably don’t have to look too far to find someone they know that has been directly affected by it.
Not sure what venue they’re going to use in place. Valencia as a race isn’t the most interesting so have at least got potential for better racing. It’s too small for the big class these days.
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Post by muddyfunster on Nov 1, 2024 16:58:27 GMT
Several interestings things emerging post FP1: - Bearman fast immediately - Max will have a 5 place drop for the GP due to taking a new ICE - Sergio has reverted to an older chassis so is not running same spec as Max. Seems like this is cost cap related, which is sort of fair enough given the number of times Checo has binned it or had avoidable contact this year. Apparently not enough spare parts for both drivers to run the latest spec. dangerousdave this is effectively what you postulated, albeit I don't think they are trying to slow Perez down, instead it's about not running out of spares for Max.
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 1, 2024 19:04:11 GMT
Not sure Hamilton really puts in the effort for sprint race qualifying.
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Post by mastercracker on Nov 1, 2024 19:10:23 GMT
Landos pace giving me a slight twinge.
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