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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 7:53:53 GMT
Even in these conditions, the Mercedes don't have the straight line speed to overtake people 'normally'. They've built a car that can't race this year. Think Hamilton would be a couple of seconds a lap quicker if he could get by. It's actually weird. Gets better exit, drafts right up behind, pulls out of the tow and immediately drops back. It's been happening all year but it's still shocking.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 7:59:28 GMT
I'm sure a big part of it is the fact that cars can now follow more closely through the corner onto the straight. Perhaps previously a similar car would've never even got within 1sec due to dirty air.
McLaren are the other team with this persistent issue. Pretty telling that Norris was the only car Russell has been able to pass normally at the end of a straight.
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Post by monkman5000 on Oct 9, 2022 8:06:52 GMT
Surely Charles loses that place.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 8:07:55 GMT
and that's why Charles is the second best driver in this title race.
That was ridiculous domination. Schumacher esque wet drive.
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Oct 9, 2022 8:08:04 GMT
Oh my. Absolutely fucked it on the last corner. LeMare.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 8:09:06 GMT
Think that should be a penalty for Leclerc. Brilliant defending through the hairpin but he left the track and maintained an advantage at the chicane.
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Post by monkman5000 on Oct 9, 2022 8:09:26 GMT
The Mercedes straight line speed thing is weirdly under-discussed - it's all been about the porpoising, but how do you go from having the fastest engine to one of the slowest?
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 8:11:34 GMT
Poor aero efficiency.
They also had a bit of a suspension trick going on in previous years which has had to be binned with these regs.
They will almost certainly come out with a Red Bull clone next year in spite of whatever copium they are dishing out publically.
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Post by damagedinc on Oct 9, 2022 8:12:56 GMT
Well how wrong was I. Good call in the end starting it when they did. Arguably could have started it and hour earlier.
Just shows having the cars out there clearing water helps
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Oct 9, 2022 8:14:12 GMT
Lol. What an underwhelming championship moment.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 8:14:50 GMT
Haha. "BTW, Max is World Champ".
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askew
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Post by askew on Oct 9, 2022 8:15:39 GMT
GG Charles
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KD
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Post by KD on Oct 9, 2022 8:18:10 GMT
Max has done it then.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 8:20:05 GMT
Jenson is so good in commentary, really hope he replaces Brundle full time as he phases himself out.
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Post by monkman5000 on Oct 9, 2022 8:20:59 GMT
Poor aero efficiency. They also had a bit of a suspension trick going on in previous years which has had to be binned with these regs. They will almost certainly come out with a Red Bull clone next year in spite of whatever copium they are dishing out publically. So just too much drag basically?
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 8:22:51 GMT
and that's why Charles is the second best driver in this title race. That was ridiculous domination. Schumacher esque wet drive. It was a good drive for sure but it was pretty much what I'd expect given what we already knew. The margin of dominance was mostly tyres. Red Bull's downforce advantage meant they could preserve theirs so much better. Did you see the tread difference on the fronts for the top 3 in park ferme? Ferrari had way less. Merc also look after theirs well but it's a bit moot when they get stuck so easily. No one was beating Max today, and he did a perfect professional job but it wasn't one of those 'how's he doing this?' wet drives. Others were as fast at various times but only Perez and Hamilton seemed to look after their rubber as well as Max. Pity we couldn't get going sooner. Very little drama in the end.
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Post by myk on Oct 9, 2022 8:26:43 GMT
The Mercedes straight line speed thing is weirdly under-discussed - it's all been about the porpoising, but how do you go from having the fastest engine to one of the slowest? In normal conditions he'd get DRS; quite a few cars are set up to take advantage like that. You'll often see teams towards the back hitting the highest speeds at the speed traps, it's the 'easiest' form of attack and defence, the teams at the top generally run as slow as they can get away with to maximise performance in low speed corners (unless you've got margin to do both).
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nazo
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Post by nazo on Oct 9, 2022 8:27:39 GMT
Good to see F1 continuing its tradition of inscrutible rules deciding the championship. The BBC commentary is still baffled about how he gets full points.
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Oct 9, 2022 8:30:34 GMT
An anticlimactic end to the championship caused by chronic aquaphobia and convoluted rules seemingly made up on the fly is a pretty much perfect way to encapsulate F1 at the moment.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 8:31:33 GMT
Poor aero efficiency. They also had a bit of a suspension trick going on in previous years which has had to be binned with these regs. They will almost certainly come out with a Red Bull clone next year in spite of whatever copium they are dishing out publically. So just too much drag basically? Yes. Far too much drag and because drag squares with speed the pain is exponential the longer the straight. Really interesting 'beyond the grid' podcast with Mike Elliott who wasn't giving much away but said they belatedly realised they made a fairly fundamental mistake at an early stage of their 2022 design. He said the porpoising initially masked the fundamental issue and once they'd mostly fixed that they realised their problem. Apparently they could only partially address their mistake on this season's car and it needs a full redesign.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 8:32:20 GMT
Poor aero efficiency. They also had a bit of a suspension trick going on in previous years which has had to be binned with these regs. They will almost certainly come out with a Red Bull clone next year in spite of whatever copium they are dishing out publically. So just too much drag basically? Pretty much. With no sidepods a lot of the air that would have been displaced by them is basically hitting those chunky rear tyres. I think they were hoping the floor was going to be doing the heavy lifting for them and the front of the car was going to do enough to displace most of the air away from that area. It's a McLaren special; best chassis on paper and computer screens. Their tyre warmup is also dogshit which is why they qualify low all the time and have random races where they look genuinely quick which is basically all down to temperatures being above average on the day. If they keep the concept next season they might as well pack it up for this set of regs as they will have a 2 year deficit to try and make up.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 8:33:40 GMT
The Mercedes straight line speed thing is weirdly under-discussed - it's all been about the porpoising, but how do you go from having the fastest engine to one of the slowest? In normal conditions he'd get DRS; quite a few cars are set up to take advantage like that. You'll often see teams towards the back hitting the highest speeds at the speed traps, it's the 'easiest' form of attack and defence, the teams at the top generally run as slow as they can get away with to maximise performance in low speed corners (unless you've got margin to do both). They still have more drag than others with DRS open, which is why they are also especially vulnerable to a DRS train.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 8:39:30 GMT
Anyway well done to Max, even when you have the car you still have to do the business and he made fewest mistakes. He has driven far more maturely and less recklessly this year than any year previous. Hopefully RB didn't materially break the budget cap so there's no asterisk on this one.
Nice to see Sky interviewing Adrian Newey too. A proper F1 legend, even though I'd still quite like him to go back to Williams or retire so everyone else has a chance!
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 8:45:53 GMT
Probably not even at his peak yet which is quite frightening as the best drivers have always tended to have their better years in their late 20's/early 30's. F in the chat for Formula 1 for a bit.
Ferrari need to sort their lives out. The first half of the season has to go down as a complete and utter disaster for them with the car they had.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 9:04:56 GMT
He's the most experienced and accomplished driver of his age ever, but we also thought Alonso and Vettel were unbeatable in their mid twenties. As in any F1 career, it'll depend on the car as to whether he gets to have his own Schumacher/Hamilton-esque era of dominance. It's certainly not a given, especially with the success based sliding scale of development tokens and cost cap should you get your initial design wrong. In theory it should be harder.
In Leclerc, Russell and Norris we've also got a crop of exceptional young drivers who will be desperate to dethrone him.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 9:13:02 GMT
Something else not really discussed is the age of the key decision makers at Red Bull. Mateschitz is 78, Marko is 79 and Newey is 63. They'll surely have to make some changes in next 5 years, even if Horner himself has plenty of time left.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 9:32:15 GMT
One more thing. Didn't matter too much today as Max was nailed on for the title whatever but the implication of using that interpretation to award full points is plain stupid.
It means that a 5min race started just before the end of 3hr window would also be awarded full points as long as it timed out rather than end in a red flag. Wasn't the entire point of the new sliding points scale (post Spa last year) to reflect the fact that a shorter race distance should be worth fewer points? If it wasn't why introduce it at all?
As per Abu Dhabi last year, this 'interpetation' blindsided all the drivers, teams, media and fans that had read their rules. It's no way to run a professional sport.
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Oct 9, 2022 9:44:40 GMT
It's full points under a chequered flag. Percentages only come into it if the race finishes under red flag. Seems to have been poorly communicated, which after Spa is a bit daft.
Bigger questions for me are why was the full time limit has reduced from 4 hours to 3 (effectively ends for good races finishing all laps under full wet starts) and why, even if the wet tyres aren't suitable to race in, can't they get cars out there using them to move some of the water sooner? They generated Inter conditions in like 5 safety car laps and one racing one today. The dithering is embarrassing, they might as well just get their own way and race exclusively in the Middle East.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 9, 2022 10:13:41 GMT
It's full points under a chequered flag. Percentages only come into it if the race finishes under red flag. Seems to have been poorly communicated, which after Spa is a bit daft. Bigger questions for me are why was the full time limit has reduced from 4 hours to 3 (effectively ends for good races finishing all laps under full wet starts) and why, even if the wet tyres aren't suitable to race in, can't they get cars out there using them to move some of the water sooner? They generated Inter conditions in like 5 safety car laps and one racing one today. The dithering is embarrassing, they might as well just get their own way and race exclusively in the Middle East. Yup agreed re: not running sooner. My point was that it is more than just bad comms, it's not worded clearly and contravenes common sense. Rules that mean you have to award full points for a 4min race that ends under chequered flag but not for a 1hr race that ends under red flag with only 49% of race distance covered are stupid. Obviously it should be the total distance raced under green flag conditions not solely the circumstances of how a race ended that defines the points awarded. It's a really bad precedent.
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Post by damagedinc on Oct 9, 2022 19:42:02 GMT
Fully expecting another delay on the money cap stuff tomorrow. Not sure f1/fia can take any more heat right now haha.
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