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Post by Bill in the rain on Dec 20, 2022 4:32:08 GMT
Sounds imminently worthy of keeping its crown then. Elden Ring is a curious one to me. Its certainly getting the plaudits but I stand (sit) here as a Soulslike poser, having now, finally, completing a run of Dark Souls, but only by ruthlessly cheating at every turn. I've been told Elden Ring is a touch more accessible, so im hopeful to try it and find it more to my liking. The biggest bugbear I have with the series is having to run the trash mob gauntlet every time I want to have a go at a boss. I just find it tedious. I'm sure someone told me that isn't as common here? Is that true? Yeah, for the most part you respawn right outside the boss chamber, it’s pretty great. There’s one exception to this I can think of, but it’s more or less a rule. So we've come full circle and soulslikes have discovered the thing that all games before dark souls discovered years ago, but all abandoned when they copied dark souls? |
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Dec 20, 2022 5:18:30 GMT
I dunno, I don't think the boss runs in previous Dark Souls games have been that bad for the most part. You don't respawn right outside their door, but usually you can run by the enemies just fine.
That's the real secret to beating Dark Souls. Running away like a coward.
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Post by bichii2 on Dec 20, 2022 6:17:43 GMT
I detest the old boss runs with a passion. There's just no need and all it adds is a minute or two to my life each run. A lot of the older ones and annoying jumps, or drops or tricky runs past enemies that might occasionally catch you.
I wouldn't have bothered finishing demons souls if the bosses were hard because the runs were so annoying.
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kal
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Post by kal on Dec 20, 2022 7:14:44 GMT
Have you had any thoughts of going back to the others kal, now you’re the master of the FROM formula? Yes I’ve tried several since. Problem is all of them require you to continue hitting your head on the same brick wall until you get past it apart from ER. ER is the only one that really has any freedom to approach the game differently if you’re stuck. |
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Post by dangerousdave on Dec 20, 2022 8:04:05 GMT
For me, if I was hitting my head in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls, I would either try another area or grind souls. The real game changer though was just understanding how to properly develop your character. Once you get that, you can make the game much easier for yourself.
However, the game still controls like a third party Gameboy game, which almost completely kills the joy of combat for me.
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Post by Vandelay on Dec 20, 2022 8:56:26 GMT
Honestly, I thought the second half of Elden Ring was ball achingly hard. The jump in difficulty from the city onwards was massive and it soured me a bit on it (still one of the best of the year, but liked it less than other From games).
Turns out this was entirely my own fault on trying to stick to my minimalist approach of just me, my sword and my rolls. The game provides so many tools that the odds are very much in the player's favour if you use them. I did cave and start using the mini summons, but really should have had some magic in the mix too.
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Dec 20, 2022 9:14:41 GMT
Yeah that's it really. Spirit ashes are pretty much integral to the game, and there's a reason there's so many of them. You essentially need to incorporate them into your build so you've got melee / ranged / spirit ashes. So many of the boss encounters rely on them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2022 15:20:19 GMT
For me, if I was hitting my head in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls, I would either try another area or grind souls. The real game changer though was just understanding how to properly develop your character. Once you get that, you can make the game much easier for yourself. However, the game still controls like a third party Gameboy game, which almost completely kills the joy of combat for me. It’s so weird to me that people champion how “great” the combat is in these versus every other games, when it’s some of the most limited, clunky, least responsive combat around. |
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Post by Vandelay on Dec 20, 2022 15:41:14 GMT
I think an element that attracts me to the combat is how you really have to commit to everything you do. In most action games you can cancel out of what you are doing, quickly switching to a block or dodging out of the way mid animation. From games limit how much you can do that. Once you are in the middle of your attack you have no choice but to accept what is going to happen. In many ways, it feels closer to a turn-based game, but still retaining a level of player skill and reflexes.
Sure, compared to many other games it may seem clunky, but that is because it wants you to think before you engage. It is very much by design.
It also has a good balance between RPG and action game, with both player skill and stats of your character build playing a part.
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Post by Danno on Dec 20, 2022 16:33:31 GMT
Didn't you come to the conclusion after 400 hours that it's a bit shit, wunty? No. Yes. I don’t know any more. You'll still be all over the DLC |
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Post by simple on Dec 20, 2022 17:23:56 GMT
Elden Ring is a curious one to me. Its certainly getting the plaudits but I stand (sit) here as a Soulslike poser, having now, finally, completing a run of Dark Souls, but only by ruthlessly cheating at every turn Discovering some DS bosses could be sniped with arrows from outside their arenas got me over a couple of humps for sure. I feel like Elden Ring sounds more like the From sequel I’ve wanted all the times I’ve backed off from buying other Souls games (and still have Bloodborne on the pile of shame) but also that it is not the game for my ‘maybe an hour or two after everyone else is in bed’ current gaming schedule. |
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Post by deekyfun on Dec 20, 2022 17:31:52 GMT
Elden Ring is a curious one to me. Its certainly getting the plaudits but I stand (sit) here as a Soulslike poser, having now, finally, completing a run of Dark Souls, but only by ruthlessly cheating at every turn Discovering some DS bosses could be sniped with arrows from outside their arenas got me over a couple of humps for sure. I feel like Elden Ring sounds more like the From sequel I’ve wanted all the times I’ve backed off from buying other Souls games (and still have Bloodborne on the pile of shame) but also that it is not the game for my ‘maybe an hour or two after everyone else is in bed’ current gaming schedule. No, it doesn't scream quick pick up game to me. It's going on my 'buy later when it's cheaper and I have more time' pile. I have Bloodborn sitting on my PS4 barely touched as well. I do kind of want to work my way throug that, DS2 (I did actually get a little into that when it first came out, but then gave up for some reason), and DS3. I have no intention of ever picking up Sekiro. I'm concerned that if I did pick it up, it'd cut my fingers and give me an infection. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Dec 20, 2022 18:06:24 GMT
Have you had any thoughts of going back to the others kal , now you’re the master of the FROM formula? Yes I’ve tried several since. Problem is all of them require you to continue hitting your head on the same brick wall until you get past it apart from ER. ER is the only one that really has any freedom to approach the game differently if you’re stuck. I think this is one of the reasons I couldn't get into Elden Ring. The need to beat a boss or enemy to progress is the incentive to keep trying and reward for defeating them. Too often with ER, if an enemy or boss was giving me trouble, I could just go around them or go somewhere else. The game is so huge that choosing to halt progress to beat something I don't have to didn't seem worth it. The game even encourages you to avoid enemies at the start, so I got into the habit of sneaking around, which was antithetical to Souls for me
Add to that that a lot of the bosses felt like mini bosses compared to previous games and that it's so much more difficult to level with the game (finding a new area in ER is less cool when it turns out you're also way overleveled for it and the boss is too easy to even care about). I'd been playing for a long time and hadn't leveled up my character much, which again is part of the fun of Souls, but I was too anxious about doing it due to the risk of overleveling. I can avoid anything too difficult and there might be an area somehere I can still comfortably do, so why level? Plus the fact there were very few weapons and armour in the early game, I just got bored of my character
I have thought about trying it again but it's the size and lack of focus that puts me off. I've watched a few reviews and it's one of those games where I hear people saying something but my experience is the complete opposite, especially in regards to the open world. No bandit camps? The ruins are bandit camps in all but name, and there's those camps with the soldiers in - soldier camps. Also that the game map isn't filled with icons but that's basically it, there's no icons. I'm sure someone has made an Elden Ring map on the internet with the locations of all the dungeons, ruins, churches, prisons, minibosses, etc and it'll look just like a Ubisoft game. Aren't there mods for Assassin's Creed that just remove the icons from the map? Isn't that basically the same thing? ER just has a rubbish map
That's not specifically to kal
For the record, I don't hate Elden Ring, I was just disappointed by it. I am genuinely confused by the praise it gets in some areas though. If people enjoy clearing ruins for a new spell, finding churches for the healh upgrades, etc, that's absolutely fine. But for someone who isn't mad keen on open world games, Elden Ring doesn't seem to do all that much different
The other thing that stood out to me from the reviews was praise for the verticality in the world design. Yeah, and they included a horse with a double jump and fucking jump pads, in a fantasy game, to resolve movement around the map. At least Dark Souls used ridiculously long elevators and ladders to connect areas. Quake 3 jump pads in a fantasy game does not translate to genius design to me
I don't hate ER, I'm over it. I just don't really get it. I don't think poorly of anyone for liking it or want to ruin anyone's fun. Regardless of any of my criticisms, if someone enjoys it, they enjoy it and no one is wrong to
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Dec 20, 2022 18:07:44 GMT
deekyfun Out of all FROM games, Sekiro is the one with the most restrictive play-style, in that levelling up is mostly gate-restricted behind boss/mini-boss battles, grinding opportunities are limited and you basically have to get the grips of the fighting mechanics (mostly deflection and posture damage) to stand a chance beating it; so your decision not to purchase it makes perfect sense 
It's probably the most rewarding though...
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Dec 20, 2022 18:26:12 GMT
Aunt Alison Not trying to change your mind or anything, but you can play ER the same way you would play any other SoulsBorne game: stay on the legacy dungeons route, concentrate on a handful of side quests/weapons/character builds, ignore most of the open world stuff and level up only when you beat a main boss. The game will be shorter that way, but most of what you hated won't bother you any more...
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Post by Aunt Alison on Dec 20, 2022 18:41:02 GMT
Aunt Alison Not trying to change your mind or anything, but you can play ER the same way you would play any other SoulsBorne game: stay on the legacy dungeons route, concentrate on a handful of side quests/weapons/character builds, ignore most of the open world stuff and level up only when you beat a main boss. The game will be shorter that way, but most of what you hated won't bother you any more... I'm happy for my mind to be changed, loved all From's other Souls games. Might pick it up one day when it's cheaper as I'd have to buy it again for Series X. I did enjoy the first main area and boss
I think I stopped just after a bit with a very long staircase and door guarded by two of those big enemies on horses from near the start. They had boss health bars but were basically just two of a normal enemy I'd already fought. I'd already booked it past them on the horse so had to go back specifically to fight them. Just couldn't be arsed, which is exactly what I'm talking about really. Just repurposing a normal enemy as a boss that doesn't need to be beaten. It's so woolly
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Post by Aunt Alison on Dec 20, 2022 19:04:49 GMT
As an aside, Git.O.T.Y 2022 as my title please. No one even remembers ecosse anymore
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Post by dangerousdave on Dec 20, 2022 20:08:58 GMT
I think an element that attracts me to the combat is how you really have to commit to everything you do. I absolutely get this opinion and fully respect that. I also love the idea of a combat system in which you have to commit to your input. With Dark Souls though, I feel the both the animation and general movement of both the player and bosses is just so janky that the idea of weight, poise and power is completely lost. It just feels stiff and clunky, rather than punchy and weighted. I'd love to see somebody like Platinum take a stab at the genre. Or Capcom. |
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Dec 20, 2022 20:19:55 GMT
To be fair all you need to do is play one of the million other soulslikes out there to realise just how much FROM have actually nailed the combat. There’s a reason they are so highly regarded.
I’m not saying every contrary opinion is wrong of course.
But it is.
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Post by Vandelay on Dec 20, 2022 20:42:53 GMT
To be fair all you need to do is play one of the million other soulslikes out there to realise just how much FROM have actually nailed the combat. There’s a reason they are so highly regarded. I’m not saying every contrary opinion is wrong of course. But it is. Play Jedi: Fallen Order after Sekiro. It really is night and day, despite them having quite similar systems. From really do know what they are doing, even if what they are doing isn't for everyone. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Dec 20, 2022 20:43:32 GMT
It is a bit clunky and weighty but not unresponsive. Some bosses, like Nameless King, feel amazing when you're constantly dodging his relentless attacks. Very few games feel as good to play as From's. Personally I always play very agile characters with light armour, no shields or magic
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Post by Wizzard_Ook on Dec 20, 2022 20:49:31 GMT
I think so few games manage to capture the rhythm of boss fights you can get with souls games. They just take you to another place when you zone into the games.
It’s one of the reasons why I actually ended up disliking Elden ring, off the back of Souls 3 they just started to introduce bullshit combos at you that you can’t avoid or at least attacks that are really hard to read and i just lost that patience I had with previous titles.
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Post by dangerousdave on Dec 20, 2022 21:04:24 GMT
It is a bit clunky and weighty but not unresponsive. I definitely wouldn't say unresponsive. It does exactly as you prompt. Just it all feels weird. I never liked it. Even after all the time I put into beating those first two games. Its like Monster Hunter. Its tolerable because of everything else those games offer, but it isn't great. But yeah, they're part of a 40+ million selling series now, so a lot of folk love it. I'm not trying to poop on anyone's dinner. I would say Hollow Knight does combat in the way I wish Dark souls did. That game, once the moveset opens up feels very punchy and weighty. There's a genuine sense of momentum to your every move and again, you have to commit to not only an attack, but a direction too, and it makes it even more punishing/satisfying. Team Cherry needs to make a 3D game! |
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Post by retro74 on Dec 20, 2022 22:00:04 GMT
I find the combat in the Souls games to be incredibly responsive. The games overall are just built brilliantly, they are rock solid. I’ve put probably 1000 hours plus into Dark Souls I alone and I can count the times I found it unfair or frustrating on one hand
Different genre but I’m playing Prey now and about ten hours in the times I’ve been frustrated due to its general jankiness and bugs are well over 1000 times already. Like yesterday when I spent 45 minutes trying to get out of a lift because one of those operator things was stuck in with me. It’s an absolute fucking mess of a game. More often than not I have to press the pad 3-4 times just for the ‘resources’ screen to come up
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Dec 20, 2022 22:03:31 GMT
Retro I loved you during your first paragraph and hated you through your second. What the fuck are you doing to me man.
Also, Dave, this is a lovely dinner you made me but this really thick gravy you poured all over it is incredibly bitter.
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Post by deekyfun on Dec 20, 2022 22:06:32 GMT
I’ve put probably 1000 hours plus into Dark Souls I alone and I can count the times I found it unfair or frustrating on one hand Can you only count them on one hand because Dark Souls cut the other hand off and is currently slapping you about the face with it? |
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Post by retro74 on Dec 20, 2022 22:12:53 GMT
It’s not my fault it’s a mess wunty I didn’t make it I think it’s strength is also it’s weakness. It’s systems are built for emergent play but they aren’t robust enough so it ends up causing so many problems. I also spent 10 minutes trying to crawl into one of those maintenance hatches, every single other one, straight in no problem. It’s a weird game. I also don’t like that you clear an area where you know there are healing robots/fabricators etc, go to another area, use all your resources- go back to the “cleared” area to heal up and make ammo - only to find it packed with even harder enemies when you’ve got fuck all to fight them with I could have been awesome but it's poor systems and gameplay undermine it’s ambition |
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Post by retro74 on Dec 20, 2022 22:14:16 GMT
deekyfun either that or I can only count to 5, it’s one or the other
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Post by Aunt Alison on Dec 20, 2022 22:15:31 GMT
There's definitely jank in Dark Souls. Weapons hitting walls is wildly inconsistent for you and enemies. Fighting on slopes/stairs is very ill advised as you can only attack forward, even if you're locked on. Jumping is awful. Bow controls are awful (Nioh puts it to shame there). Lock on is a bit fucky in DS3 as well
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Post by retro74 on Dec 20, 2022 22:18:11 GMT
That weapon in corridors is by design though. You’ve got to use pointy ones sometimes
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