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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 23, 2021 9:04:08 GMT
I imagine the reason Arteta gets a pass is mostly that he's a newbie coupled with the fact that there were/are structural problems at the club that he bears no responsibility for.
It's entirely fair to question the wisdom of Arsenal appointing a manager with no experience but the fact is they did. A calculated risk that the coaching talent and personality traits he'd presumably demonstrated previously at Arsenal and at City could translate into managerial excellence. The hoped-for upside being that we might eventually end up with a better manager on a lower wage than we could attract otherwise. Some mistakes as he learnt the job were surely priced in and most reasonable fans accepted this.
The disappointment is that many of us expected that modern effective coaching was his wheelhouse and that we'd gradually start to see better structure and intelligence in our play as training ground talent translated to the matchday. Getting the tactics wrong for certain opponents, making selection errors or bad subs or saying the wrong thing to the media were the sorts of 'rookie errors' that were expected and forgivable.
As I said before the problem is not that he's getting stuff wrong, it's that we're not seeing any signs that we're being better coached and if he can't do that, what's the point in persisting? You can't completely ignore results but losing/drawing matches whilst playing well would be more promising for me than scraping wins playing badly right now. If we aren't playing well by end of September I'd get rid.
A smart, well run club would be drawing up a list of potential replacements now and succession planning for that scenario. We haven't been a well-run club for at least a decade now, so most likely they'll wait till another season is down the pan then panic when the Emirates is empty.
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Post by snackplissken on Aug 23, 2021 10:35:10 GMT
I don't know anymore. I was really disappointed in the fanbase when Wenger out was all the rage. Now look at us. Sure the decline happened under Wenger but you can't sit here and say we'd be this bad..
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kal
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Post by kal on Aug 23, 2021 10:37:09 GMT
I see Ole is upset at the loss of 20 odd penalties this season.
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jono62
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Post by jono62 on Aug 23, 2021 10:40:03 GMT
I'm not sure what he thought was a foul, but if it was the tackle on Fernandes that led to their goal, I thought it was fine and there is no reason to complain.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Aug 23, 2021 10:41:51 GMT
There is every need to complain to cover up for the team failing to win the game.
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 10:48:48 GMT
I see Ole is upset at the loss of 20 odd penalties this season. He is a joke of a manager who is stealing a living. His only concern is not to lose, hence playing two defensive midfielders against bottom rung teams like Southampton (sorry Southampton). We only play well against teams who attack us and he has no idea what to do against a well organised team that sits back. We will win nothing under him and it is infuriating to watch. Also VDB should just put a transfers request in, if he can't get a game over scott, fred or matic their is something seriously wrong there. Ole is making me hate watching man united and for that I can't stand him |
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Aug 23, 2021 10:57:33 GMT
Lolz
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Post by TheSaint on Aug 23, 2021 10:57:47 GMT
I'm not sure what he thought was a foul, but if it was the tackle on Fernandes that led to their goal, I thought it was fine and there is no reason to complain. It clearly wasn't a foul but it was also the kind of free kick you see given all the time. I was amazed the ref didn't give it. |
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Post by TheSaint on Aug 23, 2021 10:58:57 GMT
Also, I'm not sure anyone has ever described our defence as well organised before.
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:02:34 GMT
Also, I'm not sure anyone has ever described our defence as well organised before. Oh we are very good at making teams look well organised. Basically all you have to do is play on the counter attack against United and we will make you look like world beaters. Remember we are the team that gave Sheffield United their first win last season by playing two defensive midfielders at home against a team who were being spanked 4 or 5 nil every week. |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Aug 23, 2021 12:17:40 GMT
Yep, a lot of what Muddy said above can also be applied to us. I know I'll catch some shit for not being a real fan or knee jerking after 2 games or whatever, but that Southampton game epitomises all of the problems we should have moved away from if there was any actual progress. Pedestrian bullshit in a game we're clear favourites in until we fall behind before scraping back into the game. The last 20 minutes in particular was embarrassing. Outplayed by a team that moved to a back 5 at half time.
We got by last season on penalties and moments of individual brilliance to get us back into games. That won't dig us out forever and it's worrying to see the exact same crap happening again already.
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Aug 23, 2021 12:21:39 GMT
It is worrying but it's happened in 1 game so far. You'd hope that this will be a wake up call that we still have a problem and they actively push solutions for it.
Wolves will be another test of the same kind. It happens again and we have a serious problem.
If we're not challenging for the title around Christmas Ole will probably get the boot. :/
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:26:09 GMT
Yep, a lot of what Muddy said above can also be applied to us. I know I'll catch some shit for not being a real fan or knee jerking after 2 games or whatever, but that Southampton game epitomises all of the problems we should have moved away from if there was any actual progress. Pedestrian bullshit in a game we're clear favourites in until we fall behind before scraping back into the game. The last 20 minutes in particular was embarrassing. Outplayed by a team that moved to a back 5 at half time. We got by last season on penalties and moments of individual brilliance to get us back into games. That won't dig us out forever and it's worrying to see the exact same crap happening again already. This |
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:28:12 GMT
It is worrying but it's happened in 1 game so far. You'd hope that this will be a wake up call that we still have a problem and they actively push solutions for it. Wolves will be another test of the same kind. It happens again and we have a serious problem. If we're not challenging for the title around Christmas Ole will probably get the boot. :/ You can’t really take anything from the Leeds game as it’s Leeds and they play so randomly. Southampton was always the first proper game to see how we have progressed and look what happened. Joke of a manager with no plan and I’m sick of it |
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Aug 23, 2021 12:30:25 GMT
He's not a joke of a manger, he's probably not enough to win us anything but he's not a joke. Look how far we've come since Mo. Never ever forget how bad it was. We're hopefully at the other end of the transition phase now. We just need to make that huge leap to winners, the part Ole probably won't succeed at  |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Aug 23, 2021 12:32:26 GMT
It's not even about challenging for the title. Even if we had a really, really good season results wise there would be no shame in losing to any of City, Chelsea or Liverpool.
It's the performances, it's always been about the performances. There's absolutely no joy in watching games like that on Sunday and we have a ridiculous percentage of games like that compared to our 'rivals'. It's hard watching Liverpool completely boss the same games we lumber around and struggle in. There's been almost no change in these games since Van Gaal if we're being honest. Sure, we get more points these days because we have a better team but it's a pattern that's impossible to ignore.
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Aug 23, 2021 12:36:03 GMT
We get more points because we're better. You said it yourself. That didn't happen by some chance.
We'll know more in a months time.
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:37:47 GMT
He's not a joke of a manger, he's probably not enough to win us anything but he's not a joke. Look how far we've come since Mo. Never ever forget how bad it was. Its no better just the same. 2nd place playing god awful football is just as bad as we were before when we won a few cups and sometimes qualified for CL. I'm sick of hearing how we have improved, I can on one hand count the number of genuinely good games we played in the league last season. I've supported united since the late 70's so I've seen a lot of crap. On paper this team should be entertaining and winning in style most weeks. The tactics and manager stop them doing it. He needs to be gone, loved him as a player can't stand him as a manager, he's a charlatan... |
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:39:16 GMT
It's not even about challenging for the title. Even if we had a really, really good season results wise there would be no shame in losing to any of City, Chelsea or Liverpool. It's the performances, it's always been about the performances. There's absolutely no joy in watching games like that on Sunday and we have a ridiculous percentage of games like that compared to our 'rivals'. It's hard watching Liverpool completely boss the same games we lumber around and struggle in. There's been almost no change in these games since Van Gaal if we're being honest. Sure, we get more points these days because we have a better team but it's a pattern that's impossible to ignore. In fact just listen to Solid as he gets the point across a lot better than me. |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Aug 23, 2021 12:41:12 GMT
Better players. We have a likable bunch that for the most part actually want to be here and do well, unlike the days of Di Maria, Sanchez etc. Individual brilliance from the likes of Fernandes and Pogba dig us out a ton.
But as a team, against these teams that sit back and don't just invite us in, there's honestly no difference between now and either Van Gaal or Mourinho's tenures. If you had just woken up from a 10 year coma, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if you were told either of those other guys were managing that game yesterday.
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:43:52 GMT
Better players. We have a likable bunch that for the most part actually want to be here and do well, unlike the days of Di Maria, Sanchez etc. Individual brilliance from the likes of Fernandes and Pogba dig us out a ton. But as a team, against these teams that sit back and don't just invite us in, there's honestly no difference between now and either Van Gaal or Mourinho's tenures. If you had just woken up from a 10 year coma, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if you were told either of those other guys were managing that game yesterday. And at least VG and Jose knew how to win a semi final / final against lesser teams. Something else Ole is clueless at doing |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Aug 23, 2021 12:49:47 GMT
It's about making a statement too. "Hey look, we've learned and we're over that awful performance against Villarreal at the end of last season and we're here to fight" rather than "Lol, nah, we're good. We'll just do the same thing we've been doing cheers it will work soon".
Meanwhile 2nd gear Chelsea are making Arsenal look like schoolboys.
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 12:57:13 GMT
It's about making a statement too. "Hey look, we've learned and we're over that awful performance against Villarreal at the end of last season and we're here to fight" rather than "Lol, nah, we're good. We'll just do the same thing we've been doing cheers it will work soon". Meanwhile 2nd gear Chelsea are making Arsenal look like schoolboys. The only statement we have made since Ole's arrival is that any team in the league thinks they can beat us now. They literally have no fear. Even Norwich will think they have a good chance, they'll just sit back and see if they can pick us off as its a proven tactic that works. I'd give Scott a run as DM and VDB as CM as I'm pretty sure they would compliment each other. Fred and Matic should be nowhere near the first team. But ole is shit scared of not protecting his centre backs with two defensive midfielders. He has a similar coaching style to Southgate in that respect. |
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Post by kal on Aug 23, 2021 12:59:17 GMT
He's not a joke of a manger, he's probably not enough to win us anything but he's not a joke. Look how far we've come since Mo. Never ever forget how bad it was. We're hopefully at the other end of the transition phase now. We just need to make that huge leap to winners, the part Ole probably won't succeed at I still don’t get what Mourinho did that was so awful at United but this is well trodden territory at this point. No point in going over it again, but when you say ‘look how far we’ve come’, I can tell you from the outside perspective nobody sees it. |
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 13:01:34 GMT
He's not a joke of a manger, he's probably not enough to win us anything but he's not a joke. Look how far we've come since Mo. Never ever forget how bad it was. We're hopefully at the other end of the transition phase now. We just need to make that huge leap to winners, the part Ole probably won't succeed at I still don’t get what Mourinho did that was so awful at United but this is well trodden territory at this point. No point in going over it again, but when you say ‘look how far we’ve come’, I can tell you from the outside perspective nobody sees it. Yeah this, I have a lot of Man City and Liverpool supporting mates and they all cheer with joy every time Ole gets a new contract. They love him being manager. That says a lot... |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Aug 23, 2021 13:02:34 GMT
I mean the thing is, it's always possible it was an early one-off and we could kick on and have a very good season. We've certainly got the players now.
But I don't understand how anyone can begrudge or argue with someone going "Uh oh, here we go again" after that one yesterday. They haven't earned the right for the pessimism to be dismissed so easily as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by TheSaint on Aug 23, 2021 13:08:02 GMT
It's about making a statement too. "Hey look, we've learned and we're over that awful performance against Villarreal at the end of last season and we're here to fight" rather than "Lol, nah, we're good. We'll just do the same thing we've been doing cheers it will work soon". Meanwhile 2nd gear Chelsea are making Arsenal look like schoolboys. The only statement we have made since Ole's arrival is that any team in the league thinks they can beat us now. They literally have no fear. Even Norwich will think they have a good chance, they'll just sit back and see if they can pick us off as its a proven tactic that works. I'm not sure this is anything new. I think post Fergie every team thinks they can get something against United. |
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Post by clemfandango on Aug 23, 2021 13:14:57 GMT
The only statement we have made since Ole's arrival is that any team in the league thinks they can beat us now. They literally have no fear. Even Norwich will think they have a good chance, they'll just sit back and see if they can pick us off as its a proven tactic that works. I'm not sure this is anything new. I think post Fergie every team thinks they can get something against United. Yeah you are right to some extent, but ole seems to have given all these teams an easy template to do so. Basically if you just sit back and counter, yeah we may still beat you with some individual brilliance but you will have your chances and if you take them you have a great chance of a win or draw. |
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Aug 23, 2021 13:20:40 GMT
I mean the thing is, it's always possible it was an early one-off and we could kick on and have a very good season. We've certainly got the players now. But I don't understand how anyone can begrudge or argue with someone going "Uh oh, here we go again" after that one yesterday. They haven't earned the right for the pessimism to be dismissed so easily as far as I'm concerned. Don't get me wrong, I am very concerned that this is a "Uh oh, here we go again", I said we aren't going to win shit playing like that straight after the game. I am ALL about the pessimism as I'm sure you're all aware. I just think we need to wait and see. It was our first away game of the season, the first with a full away stadium for at least 18 months. Let's see what happens in the next month, they're all teams we should be beating. As for Kalel's we aren't any better, look at the league positions. We are statistically better. |
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Aug 23, 2021 13:27:44 GMT
The spirit and attitude definitely can't be questioned. It's without doubt a happier team with more players who actually seem to give a shit about playing for the club. But there's a big thick line between the ultra-motivational man manager you want to run through walls for and the boss you've got wrapped around your finger if you make the right sounds at the right times,and it's still up in the air as to which of the two Ole actually is.
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