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Post by Zuluhero on Feb 5, 2022 19:13:08 GMT
They'd probably gag you at the door.
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Ulythium
Full Member
Lily-livered
Posts: 7,093
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Post by Ulythium on Feb 5, 2022 19:18:37 GMT
Hey I'm all for intellectual articles on videogames! I don't object to them running this kind of stuff if it's well written and well argued.
Same... although it never is at EG these days, so I guess that's a moot point.
Then they compound their folly by closing the comments section 'cause that's easier than doing some actual moderation.
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Post by steifybobbins on Feb 5, 2022 19:55:27 GMT
I didn't read the source material and I stopped reading the Eurogamer piece. I love a bit of exploration but that seemed tenuous out of the gate.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2022 21:10:45 GMT
Forget all this pseudo-intellectual pap, I just really want a return of the classics: “Someone should make a game about…(sharts/cutting the crust off bread/picking one’s nose, but resisting the urge to eat it, etc.)”
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Post by RadicalRex on Feb 6, 2022 4:32:26 GMT
Nah probably my bad- to be clear my issue is more with the one Eurogamer links to than the one on Eurogamer itself, although the one on Eurogamer does make some odd points. For example: "The satisfaction you feel at levelling up is engineered by an inherently capitalist reward loop - you've worked hard for something, so as a reward you're granted something with which to do more work." I don't think getting a reward for doing something you enjoy, which allows you to do something you enjoy even more, is 'capitalist' at all. I play the drums. I put in a lot of work to learn latin rhythms. My reward was being able to play more complicated latin rhythms. Where's the capitalism here? I actually wanted to bring that same example (guitar in my case), however thinking about it, getting better at playing an instrument is about actual personal achievement and self-expression. They're talking about finding ways to making games more about self-actualisation, and grinding for the next perk point is not--they're comparing it to capitalist consumerism where you're working your arse off for the reward of another meaningless gadget or whatever. I can see the connection being made here, even if I think it's stretching it. Actually I found parts of the medium article pretty interesting, especially those about white maleness and power fantasies in games, I've seen this discussion about films before and I think there are things worth analysing and talking about. And I do think you can talk about how much that has to do with race and white dominance rooted in colonialism and its aftermath. Not saying that this is necessarily the case, just that you can discuss it. The problem is that this needs to be a very nuanced, open-minded discussion. By viewing everything through this lens and declaring that everything is colonialism-capitalism you suffocate this discussion before it even started, so it's ultimately self-defeating. I was also reminded of an "incident" in one of EG's articles many years ago, when in one of those woke articles the author (Evans-Thirlwell, I believe) mentioned "the colonial mechanics of Mass Effect's levelling system". That earned so much ridicule that it was edited out of the article. How such a bizarre notion is not only presented as fact, but even let loose on the audience as if anyone even knew what the fuck they're talking about, says a lot about the EG bubble's utter disconnect. Well, at least now I know the background behind that idea. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Feb 6, 2022 5:13:18 GMT
I kinda liked it. Then again, I always was much more interested in the exploratory articles and think pieces on RPS than things like game news, trailers and reviews.
Even if they aren't right, or I don't agree with them, or they don't reach any firm conclusion, it's often worth a read.
TBH, I've kinda noticed the same thing when watching my kids play games, so many games are about profit, consumerism, getting money, buying things, strip-mining resources, min-maxing production, etc...
I sometimes wonder if this is a good or bad thing to be teaching them.
- Work hard in Animal Crossing to make money every day to buy useless cosmetic tat. = good life lesson about hard work or consumerist bollocks?
- Strip mining the land, deforesting the land and slaughtering all the animals for resources = creative and educational or somewhat problematic?
And of course it's only gotten worse with service games, in-game stores and dlc.
On the other hand, targets, goals and rewards are a big part of life and motivation, even if they're just personal (eg: finishing a marathon) and while they share a lot of the work/reward mechanisms of capitalism, they aren't necessarily capitalist.
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MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,840
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Feb 6, 2022 5:20:59 GMT
I don't always like or agree with the articles people write about wider issues and themes in games and gaming, but I'm fine with them existing. It's more interesting than just news and reviews, or DF stuff.
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Post by Nanocrystal on Feb 6, 2022 5:44:05 GMT
My issue with these types of critiques that look at media through a particular lens (be it feminism, race, colonialism, whatever) is that their theories are unfalsifiable and can be applied to literally anything if you're willing to stretch analogies and take the least charitable interpretation. As an example, right now I'm playing FFXIV Stormblood which is literally about freedom fighters battling against an imperialist, colonial empire to free people from their tyranny. Yet someone could easily write an article arguing that this very story is reinforcing colonial narratives, or involves a white/western saviour freeing native people who have no agency themselves, or is tone deaf in its parallels to real historical events, or is exoticising oriental cultures, etc. Once you've learned this language and the key words and phrases of this kind of analysis, it's piss easy to apply it to anything and write an article that makes you sound clever and woke. To me it comes across as performative. Not saying there's no room for this kind of criticism, far from it, but it can often be done very lazily and superficially.
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MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,840
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Feb 6, 2022 5:59:47 GMT
I don't know that a critique being "unfalsifiable" is particularly relevant. It's a discussion of a piece of art/media, not a scientific experiment.
You can call it reductive or whatever. But it's not like focusing on a particular part of a game, means that it's the only part that matters. It can be about many things.
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Post by Nanocrystal on Feb 6, 2022 6:24:11 GMT
Because an unfalsifiable theory has no value. It just becomes a lens through which you intepret everything you see. Like Rob said above, you start with your conclusions and go from there. Criticism can be compared to science in that it's better and more interesting if it's evidence based and has the potential to be proven wrong. If not, what discussion is there to be had? You end up with QAnon.
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Post by simple on Feb 6, 2022 6:50:29 GMT
Its a thinkpiece not quantitative research so I think its fine that it doesn’t live up to the ideal of the scientific method.
I have some sympathy with the basic premise of the article too but I think both the article and people arguing against it are making a bit of a stretch to make their points.
Like the article cites the mediation in Abzu when really the entirety of Journey or Abzu would meet their criteria - otherwise it just sounds like they’re opposing essentially all gameplay over particular design tropes.
Although obviously the biggest irony is it being on a site that is currently trying to paywall itself out of business.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Feb 6, 2022 7:58:52 GMT
Yet someone could easily write an article arguing that this very story is reinforcing colonial narratives, or involves a white/western saviour freeing native people who have no agency themselves, or is tone deaf in its parallels to real historical events, or is exoticising oriental cultures, etc. Once you've learned this language and the key words and phrases of this kind of analysis, it's piss easy to apply it to anything and write an article that makes you sound clever and woke. To me it comes across as performative. Not saying there's no room for this kind of criticism, far from it, but it can often be done very lazily and superficially. And that article might well have value, or it might not. Writing off the entire genre of litterary criticism and analysis just because it's unfalsifiable and subjective and not the definitive opinion that ends all discussion seems a bit drastic. As is the idea that writing analysis or criticism of media at anything above the mechanical/superficial level is somehow performative and woke. All throughout history there has been writing about the themes underlying media, and I don't think it's any more performative now than it was back when it was written on paper. It's just that the audience has become more reactionary and cynical. Rather than reading the article and thinking "hmm, that's interesting, I hadn't thought of that" they just jump to immediately dismiss it, or focus on the one slight error on line 73, or claim its some kind of woke posturing (or insert whatever political viewpoint you happen to disagree with). Even articles where at the end you decide that you disagree can still have value. |
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Post by Zuluhero on Feb 6, 2022 9:15:24 GMT
It can be interesting, even enlightening, but trying to make a laboured point, then immediately shutting down any discussion, especially when you set out your stall as a place where you can participate in commentary or discourse about articles, is kinda contradictory.
It's also difficult to not be cynical, especially when deliberately linking controversial subjects in tenuous ways, by selectively taking aspects or soundbites often out of context or in isolation to backup a point (not to mention all the confirmation bias), just to drive site traffic.
Sure, they can argue that they shut the comments to avoid conflict in the thread, and yes the article is quite incendiary, but it also stops anyone calling out reductionary bullshit and weakening an already fragile position.
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,629
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Feb 6, 2022 9:19:27 GMT
I mean, yeah, they clearly shut down the comments because every single one of them would be calling out the SUPPORTER tag on user names.
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Post by Nanocrystal on Feb 6, 2022 9:20:08 GMT
Writing off the entire genre of litterary criticism and analysis just because it's unfalsifiable and subjective and not the definitive opinion that ends all discussion seems a bit drastic. Agreed, but I never did that? I mean, read the last sentence of my post that you quoted. |
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Solid-SCB-
Full Member
Cyberpunk 2077 #1 Fan
Posts: 6,109
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Feb 6, 2022 9:26:01 GMT
I'm all for articles that break from the norm but anything I've ever read on EG has felt like your average entry on r/iamverysmart. Their writers simply can't land them without a huge masturbatory whiff about them.
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Post by Dougs on Feb 6, 2022 9:49:39 GMT
And surely this sort of thing should be in addition to their bread and butter. Not the only thing they do, which is what it seems like now.
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rajin
New Member
Posts: 276
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Post by rajin on Feb 6, 2022 9:58:55 GMT
I kinda liked it. Then again, I always was much more interested in the exploratory articles and think pieces on RPS than things like game news, trailers and reviews. Even if they aren't right, or I don't agree with them, or they don't reach any firm conclusion, it's often worth a read. TBH, I've kinda noticed the same thing when watching my kids play games, so many games are about profit, consumerism, getting money, buying things, strip-mining resources, min-maxing production, etc... I sometimes wonder if this is a good or bad thing to be teaching them. - Work hard in Animal Crossing to make money every day to buy useless cosmetic tat. = good life lesson about hard work or consumerist bollocks? - Strip mining the land, deforesting the land and slaughtering all the animals for resources = creative and educational or somewhat problematic? And of course it's only gotten worse with service games, in-game stores and dlc. On the other hand, targets, goals and rewards are a big part of life and motivation, even if they're just personal (eg: finishing a marathon) and while they share a lot of the work/reward mechanisms of capitalism, they aren't necessarily capitalist. The problem is EG lacks the writers to pull it off and can't help but push their agenda instead of leading a positive discussion. In terms of imperialism profit driven game, I can only think of Europa Universalis, then again it does apply to all countries including all that were colonized. I have seen some streamers initially getting high on their nationalistic dream of greater albania, greeks conquering byzantium etc. However, funny enough, after that initial moment and through playing other countries I actually think their territorial obsessions are reduced. Whether games with heavy monitization drive zero-sum mentality and aggrevate common resource pool problems is a far reach really. Kids are more influenced by getting rich asap fads such as crypto, pokemon and Fifa cards. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Feb 6, 2022 10:08:09 GMT
Do they still use "Comments on this article are now closed. Thanks for taking part!"?
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Post by simple on Feb 6, 2022 10:18:31 GMT
For what its worth I think no comments should be the rule not the exception
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Post by Jambowayoh on Feb 6, 2022 11:25:43 GMT
Do they still use "Comments on this article are now closed. Thanks for taking part!"? Yes, yes they do. |
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Post by spacein_vader on Feb 6, 2022 11:37:28 GMT
Do they still use "Comments on this article are now closed. Thanks for taking part!"? Yes, yes they do. I think that's a product of the comment system they use as RPS now does the same. |
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Post by godwhacker on Feb 7, 2022 9:31:05 GMT
I kinda liked it. Then again, I always was much more interested in the exploratory articles and think pieces on RPS than things like game news, trailers and reviews. Even if they aren't right, or I don't agree with them, or they don't reach any firm conclusion, it's often worth a read. TBH, I've kinda noticed the same thing when watching my kids play games, so many games are about profit, consumerism, getting money, buying things, strip-mining resources, min-maxing production, etc... I sometimes wonder if this is a good or bad thing to be teaching them. - Work hard in Animal Crossing to make money every day to buy useless cosmetic tat. = good life lesson about hard work or consumerist bollocks? - Strip mining the land, deforesting the land and slaughtering all the animals for resources = creative and educational or somewhat problematic? And of course it's only gotten worse with service games, in-game stores and dlc. On the other hand, targets, goals and rewards are a big part of life and motivation, even if they're just personal (eg: finishing a marathon) and while they share a lot of the work/reward mechanisms of capitalism, they aren't necessarily capitalist. I think your last point is the key thing- 'work' isn't exclusive to capitalism, and neither is progress against a goal, or even buying things using currency, but the direction of the article seems to be if a game contains a feature that also exists in capitalism, the game must be capitalist. There's definitely some worth to this kind of analysis, but this is just too absolutist. |
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