|
Post by Bill in the rain on Mar 22, 2024 13:56:17 GMT
But there is "fury!" about the tiny little cross that you can't even really see on the back of the neck of a football kit.
It's a highly important issue, obviously!
|
|
|
Post by gibroon on Mar 22, 2024 14:01:26 GMT
Is that top Skiing story about how little Timmy (8 y/o) is a fucking spoilt shit that is making our country worse with his woke agenda so I will make sure he has nothing to look forward to in life?
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 22, 2024 15:03:34 GMT
Surely the hard left/socialists understand the majority of the country just isn't ready for such a hard switch to the left. I'm not sure I agree. When I look really, really hard at 'hard left' policies, there isn't anything there that is more radical then, say, Clement Atlee's 1945 government, which is how the UK got the NHS. The UK's made some pretty hard right shifts since then, esp. under Thatcher, who herself adopted the rhetoric and policies of far-right parties to get into power.
But if all you have is conservatives being fully willing to appeal to extremists on their side and labour who is trying to appeal to the 'moderates' on the tories' side, what you get is a country's politics that shifts further and further into outright fascism, to the point that anything pre-thatcher (or even pre-cameron) is considered extreme. It doesn't have to be this way, which is what frustrates me a lot about modern european left wing politics at large.
|
|
|
Post by Danno on Mar 22, 2024 15:06:36 GMT
Emily Thornberry is distraught
|
|
|
Post by manfromdelmonte on Mar 22, 2024 15:36:43 GMT
Surely the hard left/socialists understand the majority of the country just isn't ready for such a hard switch to the left. I'm not sure I agree. When I look really, really hard at 'hard left' policies, there isn't anything there that is more radical then, say, Clement Atlee's 1945 government, which is how the UK got the NHS. The UK's made some pretty hard right shifts since then, esp. under Thatcher, who herself adopted the rhetoric and policies of far-right parties to get into power.
But if all you have is conservatives being fully willing to appeal to extremists on their side and labour who is trying to appeal to the 'moderates' on the tories' side, what you get is a country's politics that shifts further and further into outright fascism, to the point that anything pre-thatcher (or even pre-cameron) is considered extreme. It doesn't have to be this way, which is what frustrates me a lot about modern european left wing politics at large.
Broadly the move hasn't been "To the right." The move has been towards fiscal liberalism and prior to the banking crisis, moral liberalism came along with it. Fundamentally it's incorrect to view such matters as a simple, left to right spectrum. Atlee's policies were enacted under a Keynesian economic model, where the main concern in western governments was preventing the spread of communism. Neo-liberalism came into vogue as a means of resolving the inflation issues, which the Keynesian model lead to (along with an oil crisis). Neo-liberalism is now long past it's use by date, but you won't move the needle economically by proposing policies, which relegate you to permanent opposition.
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,857
|
Post by zephro on Mar 22, 2024 18:32:09 GMT
Surely the hard left/socialists understand the majority of the country just isn't ready for such a hard switch to the left. I'm not sure I agree. When I look really, really hard at 'hard left' policies, there isn't anything there that is more radical then, say, Clement Atlee's 1945 government, which is how the UK got the NHS. The UK's made some pretty hard right shifts since then, esp. under Thatcher, who herself adopted the rhetoric and policies of far-right parties to get into power.
But if all you have is conservatives being fully willing to appeal to extremists on their side and labour who is trying to appeal to the 'moderates' on the tories' side, what you get is a country's politics that shifts further and further into outright fascism, to the point that anything pre-thatcher (or even pre-cameron) is considered extreme. It doesn't have to be this way, which is what frustrates me a lot about modern european left wing politics at large.
Britain is fundamentally a Liberal Democracy and it's the Liberal of the British Liberal party. Even if they no longer exist. Keynes was a Liberal. The Welfare state was created by the Liberals under Lloyd George mostly. The NHS is the only major experiment the British state has made outside of that. Though under the hood most of it is still privately operated and it was basically a Keynsian plan, as mentioned. GP surgeries, pharmacies and dentists were always privately owned by the doctors as partnerships. The vested interests were left in place. Outside of the technicalities of that. I really mean it in the sense that UK politics usually don't deal in moralising, communitarian or corporatist ideas or religion. Which sets us apart from the rest of Europe in how society is even structured. But has also had advantages in terms of women and minorities becoming political leaders. We've tended to more socially liberal than most other places and economically around about the interventionism of the old Liberal party. While avoiding any kind of libertarianism or other assorted US stupidity.
|
|
|
Post by Dougs on Mar 22, 2024 19:18:30 GMT
Oooof
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 22, 2024 19:25:46 GMT
Broadly the move hasn't been "To the right." The move has been towards fiscal liberalism and prior to the banking crisis, moral liberalism came along with it. Fundamentally it's incorrect to view such matters as a simple, left to right spectrum. Atlee's policies were enacted under a Keynesian economic model, where the main concern in western governments was preventing the spread of communism. Neo-liberalism came into vogue as a means of resolving the inflation issues, which the Keynesian model lead to (along with an oil crisis). Neo-liberalism is now long past it's use by date, but you won't move the needle economically by proposing policies, which relegate you to permanent opposition. Not sure how much I agree with the last part. When I look at politics on a broad spectrum, there's been a lot of people who have succesfully pushed for policies whilst being relegated to permanent opposition status. As an example in the UK, Margeret Thatcher was able to get a lot of votes by adopting parts of the rhetoric of the National Front. There's definitely room for advocating for policies that relegate you to permanent opposition, all you have to do is ensure that the mainstream believes it's a vote winner.
|
|
Rich
Junior Member
Posts: 1,962
|
Post by Rich on Mar 22, 2024 19:28:00 GMT
|
|
|
Post by simple on Mar 22, 2024 19:29:33 GMT
I suppose one of the biggest barriers to the ‘hard left’ understanding the wider public is their belief in the concept of false consciousness
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 22, 2024 19:37:13 GMT
It's notable that the UK has been extremely quiet about Rwanda's actions in Congo...
... But then again, doesn't this achieve the Tories' goals? This means less refugees for them, no?
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,857
|
Post by zephro on Mar 22, 2024 19:43:11 GMT
I suppose one of the biggest barriers to the ‘hard left’ understanding the wider public is their belief in the concept of false consciousness The problem for both the hard left and right in this country is that they're usually fucking morons. Then in addition not respectable or weird. Atlee for instance was fucking boring and had volunteered for the trenches in WW1.
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 22, 2024 21:16:51 GMT
The problem for both the hard left and right in this country is that they're usually fucking morons. Then in addition not respectable or weird. Tbf being a moron, weird, or not respectable hasn't stopped the brexiteers. It's hard to see someone to the equivalent of Boris Johnson becoming prime minister of the UK under the labour banner.
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,857
|
Post by zephro on Mar 22, 2024 22:23:19 GMT
The problem for both the hard left and right in this country is that they're usually fucking morons. Then in addition not respectable or weird. Tbf being a moron, weird, or not respectable hasn't stopped the brexiteers. It's hard to see someone to the equivalent of Boris Johnson becoming prime minister of the UK under the labour banner. Fair. I was thinking of EDL skinheads just being weird idiots. Or the Corbyn brigade giving the distinct air of preferring World Music / Socialist English Folk / A Vegan Crank night. It's just weird and you suspect them or never having enjoyed a banger. The EDL guys are thugs beneath contempt it's usually the far left who come across as weird people with no taste.
|
|
minimatt
Junior Member
would you like us to assign someone to butter your muffin?
Posts: 1,601
|
Post by minimatt on Mar 22, 2024 22:30:40 GMT
off topic, good to see you back grizzly
|
|
|
Post by Danno on Mar 22, 2024 22:40:22 GMT
The problem for both the hard left and right in this country is that they're usually fucking morons. Then in addition not respectable or weird. Tbf being a moron, weird, or not respectable hasn't stopped the brexiteers. It's hard to see someone to the equivalent of Boris Johnson becoming prime minister of the UK under the labour banner. Broadly yes, but we did come pretty close to Scamdalf that time in like.. 1964 was it? Given subsequent world events, that may not have turned out terribly well.
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 23, 2024 0:59:51 GMT
Tbf being a moron, weird, or not respectable hasn't stopped the brexiteers. It's hard to see someone to the equivalent of Boris Johnson becoming prime minister of the UK under the labour banner. Fair. I was thinking of EDL skinheads just being weird idiots. Or the Corbyn brigade giving the distinct air of preferring World Music / Socialist English Folk / A Vegan Crank night. It's just weird and you suspect them or never having enjoyed a banger. The EDL guys are thugs beneath contempt it's usually the far left who come across as weird people with no taste. They're not really equivalents are they? If you want to compare the two I'd rather compare Corbyn to Liz Truss, rather then any blackshirt wannabes.
Then again the current tories do think that deporting people to Rwanda is a good idea so mabye they're just the EDL with better haircuts who knows.
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 23, 2024 1:00:49 GMT
off topic, good to see you back grizzly F1 got really boring so I decided to start posting again.
|
|
|
Post by puddleduck on Mar 23, 2024 1:28:38 GMT
I think I'm repeating a slight twist to what I said about Owen Jones. Most people, around the visible level of politics, are there to fund their careers.
That means they'll do, or say, anything to achieve what they wanted. The progressive journey shouldn't be to start alienating everyone on your side of the coin, but instead to understand where in the centre turns you into a magnet!
|
|
|
Post by mothercruncher on Mar 23, 2024 7:43:06 GMT
When was F1 not boring.
|
|
X201
Junior Member
Posts: 4,898
Member is Online
|
Post by X201 on Mar 23, 2024 9:16:41 GMT
It’s gone down the pan since the Yanks took over and made the usual mistake of Americanising it to attract viewers, without thinking that they’re alienating the European market and hardcore fans.
|
|
|
Post by starchildhypocrethes on Mar 23, 2024 9:20:43 GMT
To be fair, I don’t think America had anything to do with DRS or making Red Bull an unbeatable rocket ship.
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,857
|
Post by zephro on Mar 23, 2024 9:42:07 GMT
Fair. I was thinking of EDL skinheads just being weird idiots. Or the Corbyn brigade giving the distinct air of preferring World Music / Socialist English Folk / A Vegan Crank night. It's just weird and you suspect them or never having enjoyed a banger. The EDL guys are thugs beneath contempt it's usually the far left who come across as weird people with no taste. They're not really equivalents are they? If you want to compare the two I'd rather compare Corbyn to Liz Truss, rather then any blackshirt wannabes.
Then again the current tories do think that deporting people to Rwanda is a good idea so mabye they're just the EDL with better haircuts who knows.
Yeah pub posting isn't great for coherent thought. But yes Truss does seem the right-wing Corbyn. Deeply weird. Both seem like they've got absolutely no chat, outside of either libertarianism or socialism you'd just get a blank look if you asked them about music. Atlee was probably our most radical Prime Minister but he presented himself like a regional accountant, was a volunteer for the trenches and generally sold things like it was just a minor tweak to the existing system.
|
|
|
Post by grizzly on Mar 23, 2024 16:34:41 GMT
It’s gone down the pan since the Yanks took over and made the usual mistake of Americanising it to attract viewers, without thinking that they’re alienating the European market and hardcore fans. It had a couple of good years under the yanks too, mind. I still think stuff like the cost cap and actually putting the series out on youtube are good steps. On the whole they're definitely better then Bernie Ecclestone (which is a low bar, but still!)
Genuinely think that a major cause for the blame of things being boring this year is that Red Bull is very happy to never give Max a teammate that can actually match him. At least with Mercedes there was some in-team battles going on. Aside from that, the battle for second place down is actually still quite interesting...
... but yeah, on the other hand, Liberty Media has done a lot to make individual races less interesting by just having a lot more of them.
|
|
|
Post by Whizzo on Mar 23, 2024 18:42:33 GMT
The lettuce would have been better.
|
|
|
Post by peekconfusion on Mar 23, 2024 19:16:43 GMT
Glad she cleared that up so eloquently.
|
|
Lizard
Junior Member
I love ploughmans
Posts: 4,386
|
Post by Lizard on Mar 23, 2024 19:27:23 GMT
Is she actually talking about her conscience?
|
|
|
Post by Vandelay on Mar 23, 2024 19:36:58 GMT
The lettuce would have been better. Ok, so that is deep covered. What does she mean by "state"?
|
|
|
Post by simple on Mar 23, 2024 19:38:57 GMT
Does she know that Sir Humphrey was fictional?
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,857
|
Post by zephro on Mar 23, 2024 20:26:22 GMT
It’s gone down the pan since the Yanks took over and made the usual mistake of Americanising it to attract viewers, without thinking that they’re alienating the European market and hardcore fans. It had a couple of good years under the yanks too, mind. I still think stuff like the cost cap and actually putting the series out on youtube are good steps. On the whole they're definitely better then Bernie Ecclestone (which is a low bar, but still!)
Genuinely think that a major cause for the blame of things being boring this year is that Red Bull is very happy to never give Max a teammate that can actually match him. At least with Mercedes there was some in-team battles going on. Aside from that, the battle for second place down is actually still quite interesting...
... but yeah, on the other hand, Liberty Media has done a lot to make individual races less interesting by just having a lot more of them.
A couple things happened at once for me, it went behind a paywall and they started racing in stupid places. Like driving around Abu Dhabi or Zhuhai in front of a load of kleptocrats... just does nothing. Even when Schumacher was winning everything he was at least driving around tracks that you had some romantic notion of. He was driving around the same Spa that Lauda, Stewart, Senna drove around surrounded by the actual fans waving flags. Instead they drive around dumb ass places and then spray not champagne at people...
|
|