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Post by Trowel 🏴 on Feb 21, 2024 18:50:41 GMT
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Post by Whizzo on Feb 21, 2024 18:52:30 GMT
This vote will certainly stop the IDF bombing and shelling Palestinians.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Feb 21, 2024 19:19:21 GMT
Scenes when Tories try to get one over Labour by offering amnesty for Gaza refugees
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Post by technoish on Feb 21, 2024 19:24:31 GMT
Proper student politics Although I somewhat disagree that it has no impact, as UK gvt does actually have levers (or at least a potential impact) through support at international fora and in terms of trade (including weapons). One Tory MP that I read summary of intervention summed the core issue up really well...: I want, my constituents want, and Gaza needs, an immediate ceasefire. It’s not a sustainable ceasefire, it’s not a long-lasting ceasefire, which is basically just sustainably by other means …. With 28,000 now dead in Gaza, 11,500 children, playing around with words is just playing around with people’s lives. Israel has gone too far. It’s disproportionate. It’s not gone too far just today. It’s gone too far already for months. And I’m concerned about Rafah, because time and time again we have heard about innocent people’s lives in Gaza. Time and time again we have reached the figure of 30,000 [deaths]. How can we have any trust that the 1.5 million people in Rafah will also be left untouched?
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Rich
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Post by Rich on Feb 21, 2024 19:50:55 GMT
This vote will certainly stop the IDF bombing and shelling Palestinians. As one vote from an individual country... no. But despite it's best efforts, the UK does still have some clout on the world stage and joining a chorus of similar demands from peer-countries will have an effect. It's probably not enough to stop Israel doing anything right now, but next will surely come the arms trade ceasing and possibly even sanctions if Israel really does start to defy them international community.
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Post by Chopsen on Feb 21, 2024 19:58:37 GMT
That's a competency expected of the foreign office, British diplomats and any representation we would have on international bodies. None of those need parliament to act in order to make judgments on that, and if anything I'd imagine it just makes it harder and it reduces leeway and scope for discretion.
Regardless of which of 52 varieties of ceasefire you believe is right, today's vote is futile in actually bringing round any change. It's just posturing and points scoring. A complete waste of parliamentary time, and it's not like there aren't other problems which parliament* can* solve are affecting us.
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Blue_Mike
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Post by Blue_Mike on Feb 21, 2024 21:00:05 GMT
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X201
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Post by X201 on Feb 21, 2024 22:10:58 GMT
Anyway, back to the normal routine of the Tories screwing up the country. Prevent counter-terror scheme failures leave public at risk - ex-adviser www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68363058
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Post by peekconfusion on Feb 21, 2024 22:17:13 GMT
I feel like it's been widely known for a while that Prevent is more than a bit useless at what it's intended to do.
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Post by Dougs on Feb 21, 2024 23:47:08 GMT
The hand wringing over the stuff in the commons is hilarious. No-one outside of Westminster or twitter is going to care. The whole thing was just party politics, starting with the SNP motion itself.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Feb 22, 2024 2:10:48 GMT
I'm not sure about the nobody caring bit. Isn't the UK the only one that basically supported the US veto at the security council? And even the US seems to be getting pretty pissed off with the Israeli government.
Good grief, I'm being forced to agree with Tory MPs now.
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Onny
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Post by Onny on Feb 22, 2024 5:23:44 GMT
A broken clock is right twice a day etc
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Onny
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Post by Onny on Feb 22, 2024 5:26:24 GMT
Although if you start talking about creamy milk you have to hand your woke liberal card in.
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Post by Dougs on Feb 22, 2024 6:27:37 GMT
Bill in the rain I meant more the theatre of parliament itself - the shenanigans with the speaker etc, rather what they were actually meant to be voting on.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Feb 22, 2024 6:29:59 GMT
Bill in the rain I meant more the theatre of parliament itself - the shenanigans with the speaker etc, rather what they were actually meant to be voting on. Ah, I get you. Agreed. I'm not sure how binding the SNP's original motion would have been anyway, but it does seem like a case of shenanigans and theatre and obscure precedents getting in the way of actually doing anything.
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Post by Dougs on Feb 22, 2024 6:42:29 GMT
It was an opposition day motion, so non-binding. One interpretation is that is was laid purely to expose divisions within the Labour party. The speaker chose Labour's amendment rather than the Government's, which was somewhat against precedent but just about justifiable. Ish.
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Vandelay
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Post by Vandelay on Feb 22, 2024 7:48:14 GMT
He actually didn't choose Labour over the government; he chose both. The argument was that as it was such an important subject and clearly tensions on all sides were high, all parties should be able to debate their positions. On the face of it, that seems reasonable, but I have no idea how against the grain it is or whether any rules were actually broken or just conventions.
And it all comes down each side ostensibly wanting the same outcome, just with their own wording on the matter (albeit, I got the impression the Tory amendment was basically "only ceasefire if all of Hamas turns themselves in", which was never going to happen).
Edit: it should also be said that all parties were clearly using this for point scoring. SNP only raised it to try to fuck over Labour; Labour had to put their own spin as they couldn't be seen agreeing with the SNP and could have prevented all this by just voting with the SNP; Tories wanted to cause chaos amongst the other sides, whilst somehow trying to appear like grown-ups. It was pretty shameful from whatever way you look at it.
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otto
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Post by otto on Feb 22, 2024 8:01:12 GMT
It’s gone too far already for months. It's gone too far already for years. Decades.
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Post by The12thMonkey on Feb 22, 2024 8:14:16 GMT
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Feb 22, 2024 8:15:34 GMT
The hand wringing over the stuff in the commons is hilarious. No-one outside of Westminster or twitter is going to care. The whole thing was just party politics, starting with the SNP motion itself. I think people do care in that all they see is idiots squabbling over something that should be a no brainer, unifying issue. It’s insane how they can’t see how damaging this is and just reinforces the perception that they are all as useless as each other.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Feb 22, 2024 8:20:56 GMT
They all appear to think they're in America. First of all JRM doesn't know what Liberal means, now this. Are they all just addicted to Fox News and Tucker Carlson in the same way that Trump is?
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Post by Chopsen on Feb 22, 2024 8:21:20 GMT
They all do look like twats.
I'm a bit of a politics nerd, and I needed to read about what happened a couple of times before I understood why everybody was miffed at Hoyle, and I'm not sure I can explain it fully to someone else without missing some key detail or at least boring myself.
Absolutely nobody is going to care about this, apart from the general air of incompetence and time wasting fighting.
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Post by Chopsen on Feb 22, 2024 8:24:03 GMT
They all appear to think they're in America. First of all JRM doesn't know what Liberal means, now this. Are they all just addicted to Fox News and Tucker Carlson in the same way that Trump is? One of the various recent conservative splinter group conferences had formal links and support from a US conservative group, who even spent speakers along iirc. They are trying to import US style conservativism wholesale, forcing it by raising these talking points and using US terminology.
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Post by Dougs on Feb 22, 2024 8:27:41 GMT
Agree nick and chops - the air of incompetence isn't helpful. Most people will still just shrug though. Sadly. I saw someone on a local Facebook group, who was asking for help about social housing, say they weren't bothering to vote as they didn't think it relevant to them. Wish more people would see that politics affects everything and everyone.
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Feb 22, 2024 8:28:17 GMT
They all appear to think they're in America. First of all JRM doesn't know what Liberal means, now this. Are they all just addicted to Fox News and Tucker Carlson in the same way that Trump is? One of the various recent conservative splinter group conferences had formal links and support from a US conservative group, who even spent speakers along iirc. They are trying to import US style conservativism wholesale, forcing it by raising these talking points and using US terminology. The UK's 'deep state' would be a parish council.
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Post by peekconfusion on Feb 22, 2024 8:30:26 GMT
The 'Deep State' is....quangos?
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Post by Bill in the rain on Feb 22, 2024 8:35:35 GMT
UK Deep State
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Post by dfunked on Feb 22, 2024 8:37:41 GMT
I can see people lapping this shit up sadly, even though it's complete and utter bobbins.
There was no grand deep state conspiracy at play here, Liz. You were just fucking useless.
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otto
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Post by otto on Feb 22, 2024 8:42:44 GMT
I don't think many people will lap it up tbh. The UK isn't the US, not even a little bit. Truss and Farage are looking for validation where they will find it, which isn't in the UK. They're also looking for cash incidentally. This stuff goes down gangbusters with Americans and not at all with the British, which is why they're doing it in America and not in the UK.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Feb 22, 2024 8:47:29 GMT
Yeah it won't fly here. We just don't have the same conspiracy nonsense. Closest I can think of is when people thought the Queen had Diana killed and even then that's more Eastenders than anything.
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