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Post by Danno on May 25, 2022 21:48:11 GMT
That kicked off within 2 hours if the incident. Every one of their ideas was torn down but they just won't stop and I wish I knew why*
*why the propagators aren't choking on lead themselves tbh.
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Post by Jambowayoh on May 25, 2022 22:00:08 GMT
Presenting without comment Fuck, they're really leaning into saying the quiet part loud these days.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on May 25, 2022 22:03:37 GMT
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on May 25, 2022 23:21:39 GMT
Err... can't they just log off?
Like obviously it's not nice at all, and the people who did it should be punished in some way. But I can't imagine the trauma being nearly on the same level when it's just your avatar, and you basically have complete control over the space.
But maybe this is the future.
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Post by drhickman1983 on May 26, 2022 3:22:03 GMT
Tbh it's just what female gamers experience now, but in higher definition.
I know a few of my friends won't speak when playing with randoms because they've been harassed for being women.
Is virtual harassment the same as and as bad as physical harassment, no, not really.
Can it be upsetting when it happens frequently, and can it stop women engaging with a hobby, either by making them feel they have to limit their interactions or just put them off entirely? Yes, definitely.
I don't give a shit about Meta VR but I'd rather it wasn't a place where women have to hide themselves to avoid being harassed.
And any guys who say "it's all just banter we get called names too" can fuck off, the discourse is quite different. And to be honest that obnoxious kind of "banter" is still awful.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on May 26, 2022 4:10:10 GMT
I'm aware of harassment, and yeah it's absolutely shitty.
I guess I was just responding to the "assault of my cartoon avatar is like assault to my irl body" vibe of it, which feels like a slightly different thing. Like Sword Art Online, only real.
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Post by Aunt Alison on May 26, 2022 7:20:24 GMT
Err... can't they just log off? Like obviously it's not nice at all, and the people who did it should be punished in some way. But I can't imagine the trauma being nearly on the same level when it's just your avatar, and you basically have complete control over the space. But maybe this is the future. Why does it have to be on the same level? This just seems really dismissive
The point of VR is to make it more immersive and personal. A lot of bullying and harrassment is mental and emotional, which few people have complete control over
Also apply the situation to children
The point is they need to sort it out instead of letting it turn into FB where moderation is a joke
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Post by Vandelay on May 26, 2022 7:28:15 GMT
The only surprising thing about that article is that they have any surprise at all that this happens. I imagine that the Time to Sexual Harassment for female gamers is the new Time to Crate of modern games. That TTSH is likely dramatically shortened in VR.
It is an awful thing and companies should be held responsible for not controlling this more, although I also imagine that there is a lot of "ban this sick filth" attitude perpetrated by the media to make it sound more pervasive than it is. See links below that article to a producer posing as a 13 year old that gets harassed; then watch the video and discover she had gone into a virtual strip club. Not that that excuses the behaviour (she is seen asking people to stop) and not to sound like the modern equivalent of "she deserved it for wearing a short skirt", but it certainly puts a different spin on it.
For a more balanced view on this, I recommend checking on the most recent People Make Games video, which has Quinns Smith delving into the VR Chat. Definitely came away from that thinking that the future of this stuff is as exciting as it is terrifying. There should undoubtedly be more safeguards in place to protect vulnerable people or those that don't want that kind of attention. Equally though, there needs to be places where people are free to express themselves. The last thing we want to happen to the VR metaverse is to turn it into some kind corporate sterile land of blandness.
Edit: just to be clear, I have no doubt that the specific incident in question is terrible and should never have happened. I don't want to sound like I'm belittling her experience. My point is more about general reporting of the "metaverse" and how traditional media (particularly BBC) likes to inaccurately portray these things with a Helen Lovejoy attitude.
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Post by Aunt Alison on May 26, 2022 7:36:35 GMT
I would think the issue is in getting carried away with how exciting it is and hand waving away the concerns so that by the time this thing is ubiquitous, it's too late to do anything about it/no one really cares
Vandelay I deleted my original post and was going to do the same again because I can't be arsed to research this that much to be honest, but isn't that a separate issue to FB?
Can't people VR chat using other methods? FB is a corporate product and should be treated as such, especially if they want everyone and their nan to be using it and making plenty of money from doing so. They're responsible for it and for allowing people to be and feel safe
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Post by Vandelay on May 26, 2022 8:29:35 GMT
VR Chat is an indie made "game" much like the FB Meta "game". It is still a product that you purchase, so I think you should still expect some protection in place from the developers. I don't know huge amounts about it beyond what I saw in the PMG video, but I understand you can set restrictions on how close people can come to you, remove parts of your avatar, turn of touch and so on.
You are right though, VR Chat is very much the wild west and you shouldn't expect or necessarily want FB to take a similar approach to their product. However, inevitably, we should probably expect the FB's product (or some other corporation's product) to become the defacto metaverse. As discussed in the PMG video, the reason FB is going all in on this is because of them not wanting to be reliant on other people's platforms for their social media platform. Right now, Apple and Google can dictate what FB does, to some extent, and takes a cut of their pie. FB want to get away from that and create a monopoly in this virtual space.
Again, referring to the PMG video, they make a comparison to the Internet of the 90s where you might stumble upon really creative and interesting work or you might stumble upon the hamster dance. Equally, you might stumble upon lemon party. During interview in the video, many people were excited about the expansion that work from FB would make possible, but also worried about losing the freewheeling nature of VR Chat because of safeguards.
There is no question that safeguards to protect people should be in place and suitable punishments should be there for those that are violent or harassing others (including, I think, criminal punishment). However, if two people want to have virtual sex with each other (devices are available to make this actually possible) than they should be able to do that too.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on May 26, 2022 8:52:30 GMT
Err... can't they just log off? Like obviously it's not nice at all, and the people who did it should be punished in some way. But I can't imagine the trauma being nearly on the same level when it's just your avatar, and you basically have complete control over the space. But maybe this is the future. Why does it have to be on the same level? This just seems really dismissive
The point of VR is to make it more immersive and personal. A lot of bullying and harrassment is mental and emotional, which few people have complete control over
Also apply the situation to children
The point is they need to sort it out instead of letting it turn into FB where moderation is a joke
I'm not trying to be dismissive. I just don't see how it specifically being in VR makes it any different from problems normally associated with, say, chat programs. Which absolutely should be monitored, especially if kids are involved. Sexual harassment/grooming/etc are most definitely things to be wary of. But the article describing the VR situation as sexual assault just felt weird to me. It's not your real body!
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Post by dfunked on May 26, 2022 9:02:16 GMT
Unwanted sexual conduct sounds a bit more fitting I guess. It's shit whatever you call it.
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Post by Vandelay on May 26, 2022 9:09:44 GMT
I don't think the comparison to convential chat programmes really holds up due to the immersive nature of VR. You may not have physical sensation, but people can still get right in your face in an aggressive manner that is far more invasive compared to sending messages. Plus, if the technology continues to advance and body suits become the norm with improved feedback than the lines between real life and virtual life will be blurred to the point of irrelevance.
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Post by drhickman1983 on May 26, 2022 9:12:18 GMT
I'm just glad I feel no inclination to join in with this VR meta hellscape.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on May 26, 2022 9:12:53 GMT
I guess once we get closer to an "everyone uses VR with full-feedback haptic suits" dystopia, I might be more inclined to treat assault of a cartoon avatar as close to actual assault. They feel pretty separate right now, though.
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Post by Aunt Alison on May 26, 2022 9:19:20 GMT
Couldn't you make the same argument about online bullying though? They don't know you in real life, it's not the same as actual bullying I think you're ignoring how blurred online and real life are these days. Especially if you're a younger person, being social online is a facet of real life and people are really invested in their online personas. Some people have never lived without it and that's basically everyone now I don't think 'just turn it off' is a solution, they'd be missing out on everything else that comes with it. Why should they, because they're a woman?
If someone started laying into you on here, should you just not use the forum anymore? How is that fair? You would expect a mod to intervene, as you should
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Post by Vandelay on May 26, 2022 9:21:38 GMT
I'm just glad I feel no inclination to join in with this VR meta hellscape. Same, mostly, although I can see the appeal to some extent. As an owner of a Vive, I bought into it with the hope of immersive single player experiences. Unfortunately, that isn't the direction it seems to be heading in.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on May 26, 2022 9:31:04 GMT
It is funny. VR promised all of this fantasy escapism, being a superhero or flying planes and it just ends up being used to sell virtual real estate to people and facilitate sexual harassment.
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Post by Duffking on May 26, 2022 9:51:38 GMT
You *can* just log off, but you shouldn't have to. The onus shouldn't be on victims to adjust their behaviour and habits to correct for the behaviour of abusive people.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on May 26, 2022 9:53:40 GMT
You *can* just log off, but you shouldn't have to. The onus shouldn't be on victims to adjust their behaviour and habits to correct for the behaviour of abusive people. Right. It's rather telling about the state of humanity that this VR metaverse is only months old and is already plagued by reports of harassment and the like.
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Post by Chopsen on May 26, 2022 10:38:44 GMT
It's rather telling about the state of humanity that this VR metaverse is only months old and is already plagued by reports of harassment and the like. Well, it's another implementation of online interpersonal interaction, so of course this was going to happen. I don't think that VR is going to get widespread acceptance generally, fwiw, but to be all cyberpunk wanky about this.... Online interaction transcends real world interaction due to the very obvious differences in how those interactions can be governed. In real life, we're subject to laws and physical constraints of being within nation states that have laws and the ability to enforce them. In CYBERSPACE (/waves hands dramatically) those are unenforceable. Even if you prohibit anonymity, the fact that you have people inhabiting IRL geographical spaces with different legislation and often impractical methods of enforcement from one jurisdiction to another, assuming that there is legislation that exists in the first place and that it is even workable. See our govt's attempts at the "online harms" bill or whatever it's formally called.
In the absence of having an actual enforceable legal framework around interpersonal interaction from traditional nation states, you're left with it falling to the corporations who provide these places themselves to police them. There seems to be a trend to generally shy away from taking a formal legal responsivity here with online platforms wanting to be seen as merely the messenger and a "neutral carrier" or whatever the term is. Their decisions about what activity they will tolerate and clamp down on comes down to the image they want to project to investors and concerns from shareholders. Meta will not, for example, want to become a place with a reputation for arms trading and child porn, as this would be toxic for raising capital. However, smaller interpersonal aggressions (analogous to harassment irl that you might want to call the police for) is unlikely to be policed or clamped down on aggressively unless it looks like it will affect the company's bottom line.
For widespread adoption, you're going to need widespread acceptance. That means lowest common denominator stuff. The cultural equivalent of prime time BBC1. This will not be the brave new world of human expression, as that is likely to frighten investors. It will be bland, corporate, and the smaller things that can be swept under the carpet.
tl; dr VR is bollocks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2022 11:33:07 GMT
With the oculas I know a few woman with mental health issues (ptsd, agoraphobia, depression and anxiety) that have really braced vr as a way to meet people and come out of their shells. This sort of thing would be absolutely devastating to then. I know we can dismiss this type of abuse easily, but it can be very real to people.
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myk
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Post by myk on May 26, 2022 11:33:25 GMT
Just because it's in VR doesn't mean that laws don't apply, it's like people that face legal action for stuff they've said on twitter. As it becomes more widespread there will have to be more moderation - either that, or you'll have to consent to the possibility of unwanted interactions when you log in.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on May 26, 2022 11:35:48 GMT
It's rather telling about the state of humanity that this VR metaverse is only months old and is already plagued by reports of harassment and the like. Well, it's another implementation of online interpersonal interaction, so of course this was going to happen. Yes, but this soon - the tech and platform is absolutely in its infancy, barely just starting to be used and already, the cunts are there.
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Post by Aunt Alison on May 26, 2022 11:42:33 GMT
I think the wider you cast your net, the more responsibilty you have. If FB get their way, this won't be a little VR thing you have to seek out, it'll be just what everyone uses. Safety features should have been baked in at a design stage instead of something they'll just tack on later when people make a fuss about it
Also Clegg's comment about a pub landlord not being responsible for every conversation doesn't make much sense. If a landlord saw someone being harrassed and did nothing about it, I don't think many people would be OK with that. Even in that scenario, the pub would have to be completely self service with no staff and a free for all. Guess what would happen
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on May 26, 2022 11:47:45 GMT
The odd thing about the facebook vision for VR and 'the metaverse' is that they dont even try to hide how shit it is. Because they are trying to extract maximum value from everything, their plan for this virtual universe is to have you do the same things as you would IRL but in a way that they can charge you.
Its so boring. Virtual shopping, virtual real estate, virtual houses, virtual bars where virtual sex pests wont take a virtual no for a virtual answer. What the fuck is the point in any of it? Their meta pitch was genuinely laughable. Who wants any of it?
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Post by Aunt Alison on May 26, 2022 11:49:09 GMT
No germs
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Post by drhickman1983 on May 26, 2022 11:56:56 GMT
The metaverse is bollocks. It just feels like part of the ultra commodification of the web, where everything is there to make money, or sell promises that it can make you money.
All whilst raking in your personal data. And commodifying that.
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Post by technoish on May 26, 2022 11:58:20 GMT
A ban/block function that means you can't see people you don't want to would be soooo easy.
I do it immediately nowadays for anybody I come up against on Xbox that is spouting harassment, hate speech, or is griefing (plus a report). I don't want to waste my time engaging with them. I just send a short message to say they have been reported and then I block them, so I don't even see a response.
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Post by drhickman1983 on May 26, 2022 12:02:23 GMT
I take the same approach, in terms of blocking others etc, but I do wonder if that's partly why internet culture is so tribal.
Everyone ends up in their own weird echo chambers getting more and more embedded into that way of thinking. Which in turn actually helps groups like, for example, incels or conspiracy theorists grow.
I'm not sure what the alternative is though.
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