Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 11, 2024 12:56:17 GMT
That's the kind of regressive nonsense that's dragging us back in, unfortunately. I like being in the office. If I lived closer, I would be there most days but I'm not and 'collaboration' isn't worth the expense of getting there to me.
And most people who adjusted their lives around it were assured this was an ongoing policy, so who can blame them? Im lucky that its 'just' travel and subsistence. I have colleagues who now have to fork out for breakfast clubs and pet care. Its a real terms pay cut for everyone but did we get an adjustment for being dragged back in? Did we fuck.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 11, 2024 13:08:06 GMT
The "collaboration" angle our fucking execs keep bollocking on about annoys me. I don't think they actually have any clue how most people work. I've lost faith in our leadership over the last few years but that's an aside.
Over the last decade our group had been encouraging teams to recruit across the country, so most teams are not based in central locations. So a substantial number of people go into the office then just have to use Teams to actually speak to the rest of the team anyway.
I've quite literally gone into the office and gone through the entire day without actual speaking to anyone face-to-face.
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Post by zisssou on Apr 11, 2024 13:11:03 GMT
Most of my team are in India. What's the point of me being in the office? None. I miss it in some ways, when I had some good friends working there, but these days I'd be going in there to talk to no one.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Apr 11, 2024 13:15:48 GMT
I'm on opposite side, I and most of the people I work with are very much enjoying being back in office. If only we had enough desks for everybody... The/Wed/Thu is almost impossible to get one. Only people not so happy are because they moved far away, or pretend to be able to do work and childcare at the same time. But I'm like, that was your choice. I have close friends who have always juggled work and baby/toddler at home on Fridays, but I think that is neither doing your job or looking after the kids (who I assume gets to watch TV most of the day. (Sorry I'm getting into my most judgey area, screen time for young children). I'd be pissed off if I was their manager. Glad your not my boss.
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Post by zisssou on Apr 11, 2024 13:18:39 GMT
technoish yeaaaah I'm going to have to have you come in everyday now. You can put the tele on for the kids, and I'll need those reports typed out for tomorrow.
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Post by Reviewer on Apr 11, 2024 13:33:23 GMT
I have no one to collaborate with, same for the rest of the team. We all do different things.
The only people I need to talk to are 100 miles away as they’ve always been. Phoning them from my home or the office makes no difference.
Most of our execs/senior managers spend 2-4 hours every day driving between sites, largely because all they have to do are meetings and make themselves like visible and so must be important. Nothing much comes out of their meetings.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 11, 2024 13:56:03 GMT
I keep trying to make the effort to go to the office and be sociable, just to get out of the house. And then I get there and no-one else is there and I'm still doing all my meetings through Slack - but I've had the joy of 2 hrs of unpaid commuting on crammed trains.
I am trying to work out if I can go to a local cafe with wi-fi to work though. Partly for a change of scenery, and partly for concentration after the kids get back from school. Just need to work out how much it'll cost in coffee and vpn fees and find somewhere decent nearby.
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Post by technoish on Apr 11, 2024 14:15:53 GMT
If people were told working remotely was a change in their T&Cs that's different, and of course it makes more sense for some jobs.
I have little sympathy for people that moved 300 miles away without a change in policies though, and now don't want to come in. On kids stuff, it's not quite the same, but I support taking a flexible approach to hours - eg I personally always start quite late when going into office because I do school drop offs at normal school starting time, but I make up the overall hours over the week.
All of our junior staff are keen to be in, and like to have more senior ones there to discuss things with. We are almost all based on one site.
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rhaegyr
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Post by rhaegyr on Apr 11, 2024 14:23:04 GMT
Edit - forget it, trying to be less of a prick and failing.
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Post by zisssou on Apr 11, 2024 14:33:39 GMT
Edit - forget it, trying to be less of a prick and failing. Ban please.
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Post by Dougs on Apr 11, 2024 14:40:07 GMT
I thought it was a fair point, just perhaps a bit too pointy. WFH is just an extension of flexible working. Why one and not the other? I think there is something about more junior/new members of staff learning better from those more experienced in person - especially the tangential stuff you overhear etc. But ultimately it's down to everyone to adapt and change the way we work.
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rhaegyr
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Post by rhaegyr on Apr 11, 2024 14:48:14 GMT
Articulated much better than my attempt!
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 11, 2024 14:52:20 GMT
Its a new way of working. Do young people learn more in the office and pick the job up faster? Probably. Do they have to uproot their entire lives to take those jobs? Nope.
You give up some interpersonal relationships WFH but you gain the ability to maintain and nurture relationships with people you actually give a fuck about and potentially stay somewhere your money goes further. I've got a graduate based in Hull. Southern money goes a lot further up there.
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Post by simple on Apr 11, 2024 14:53:29 GMT
I prefer working in the office to working at home because I’m more productive and like the separation of spaces. But that’s largely down to my own lack of discipline.
Maybe we need to adopt a system where all roles are part time or job share so there’s always someone doing the task even if half the week its not you.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 11, 2024 15:11:23 GMT
If people were told working remotely was a change in their T&Cs that's different, and of course it makes more sense for some jobs. I have little sympathy for people that moved 300 miles away without a change in policies though, and now don't want to come in Although I'm generally against a mandated office days, I do think anyone who upped sticks without having a contractual change was a bit short-sighted and naive, to say the least. Our place never suggested remote working was here to stay, so my colleagues who moved to bumblefuck-nowhere on a whim can only blame themselves.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 11, 2024 15:34:03 GMT
Ours did. We had a formal 'ways of working' policy change and we shut admin centres and it was like that for three years. Then our 'progressive' CEO got replaced with an 80s Business Person who decided that because she did business in the office when she was younger everyone had to do business in the office because she's great and what she did was great.
You can't really blame people for being up in arms about it. People keep hand waving it away with 'well, company X got their staff back in' and yeah, they did. After like six months.
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Post by Honk If You're Horny? on Apr 11, 2024 16:12:18 GMT
There are positive elements to being in the office. Cross skill development, networking, sometimes a problem can be resolved with a 10 second face to face discussion rather than scheduling a teams call or firing a dozen emails back and forth. Then there is the socialising element and culture that aren't part of delivery but have their own benefits.
That said I think we are well past the 5 days in model (thank goodness) and the flexible model is here to stay.
Honestly the worst part of my job is the commute.
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Post by Reviewer on Apr 11, 2024 16:37:13 GMT
Being more WFH is a different skill and mindset, training is new people need to be done differently and so companies need to adapt as it’s not going away. The benefits are huge and opens you up to a significantly larger pool of labour and more opportunities to make work less shit for most people by being more flexible.
Those that take advantage are the ones who do the same in the office, they usually look like they’re doing more because they’re noisy.
Ours occasionally mentions we may be forced in 3 days a week but we’ve worked this way very effectively since COVID. Changing to that now makes no sense at all.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 11, 2024 16:40:31 GMT
I do think there are benefits to being in the office, but there needs to be a purpose, and there usually isn't.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Apr 11, 2024 17:40:01 GMT
There are positive elements to being in the office. Cross skill development, networking, sometimes a problem can be resolved with a 10 second face to face discussion rather than scheduling a teams call or firing a dozen emails back and forth. Then there is the socialising element and culture that aren't part of delivery but have their own benefits. That said I think we are well past the 5 days in model (thank goodness) and the flexible model is here to stay. Honestly the worst part of my job is the commute. I agree with all this. Would probably go in more than 1 day if our office wasn't a shit hole in Zone 4. Was central before the pandemic, just basic stuff like having good lunch spots would improve my life.
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Post by technoish on Apr 11, 2024 18:33:38 GMT
I've said my piece, but I also don't think my work has done it properly (and with mixed messages) to ensure the benefits of requiring people to come in are actually realized. It's just 60% in office, with more for seniors for visibility. They don't even encourage/empower managers to properly coordinate it, e.g. getting teams to pick a day they will aim to co-locate in the building.
So I can understand people might be annoyed having to come in and not actually sitting with any of their own team...
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Apr 11, 2024 18:46:26 GMT
Oh before the pandemic I was against the open plan non co-seatinh thing. As that's fucking pointless. Why turn up when you're not even next to your own team and unable to hear your own team.
Old offices where your team had a room and you put sarcastic stickers over all the company approved art is the true way to create comradery.
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Post by Danno on Apr 11, 2024 22:07:44 GMT
There are positive elements to being in the office. Cross skill development, networking, sometimes a problem can be resolved with a 10 second face to face discussion rather than scheduling a teams call or firing a dozen emails back and forth. Then there is the socialising element and culture that aren't part of delivery but have their own benefits. That said I think we are well past the 5 days in model (thank goodness) and the flexible model is here to stay. Honestly the worst part of my job is the commute. I agree with all this. Would probably go in more than 1 day if our office wasn't a shit hole in Zone 4. Was central before the pandemic, just basic stuff like having good lunch spots would improve my life. Ahhh Finchley I bet.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Apr 11, 2024 23:18:53 GMT
I agree with all this. Would probably go in more than 1 day if our office wasn't a shit hole in Zone 4. Was central before the pandemic, just basic stuff like having good lunch spots would improve my life. Ahhh Finchley I bet. Worse. Mill Hill.
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Post by Danno on Apr 11, 2024 23:34:01 GMT
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Onny
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Post by Onny on Apr 12, 2024 4:41:53 GMT
My season ticket works out at approx £560 per month, which as you might imagine is a significant chunk of my monthly wages. If I could WFH full time that is an enormous saving, even ignoring the time spent on the commute.
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Post by apollo on Apr 12, 2024 6:52:35 GMT
I really like hybrid working, currently no forced/set days in the office. I tend to go in 1 or 2 days a week (on the section I sit at now, its so empty most of the time) There is some advantages of going into the office, other people have mentioned like face to face chats to solve issues. Also depending on your coworkers its nice to have lunch with them once in a while. When I worked in the US, friday use to be pizza and beers after work and was nice social event
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Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 12, 2024 7:06:23 GMT
I definitely go in for the bi-monthly pizza nights, as do most people. The other big advantage of going in to the office is the 10,000 restaurants within a 5 minute walk at lunch time. The pizza night days have the advantage of people actually being there at the same time though. On other days I'm likely to find myself basically working and eating alone, despite being in the office. Which feels kinda pointless.
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Post by dfunked on Apr 12, 2024 7:18:05 GMT
I got this job when everything was still fully remote, but only ever had verbal agreements that it'd be long term WFH. I've known all along that it's only a matter of time before they push for more time in the office, but given how poorly received their last attempt was and how swiftly they went back to one day, it's still felt relatively safe. Now of course we've got a fresh bunch of cunty C levels who weren't there the last time a full on revolt was nearly caused.
One day a week is fine with me, but fuck doubling or tripling my travel expenses without any kind of pay bump. It's a pay cut plain and simple.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 12, 2024 8:25:18 GMT
Yeah, when I started it was emphasized that we didn't need to come to the office. But that's not in any of the contracts.
Luckily, both the department managers prefer not to come to the office, so there's no sign of it changing soon. If the company did decide to change it then I dunno if there's anything I could do about it.
A bunch of junior people would be ok with it, as they're mainly free and single and have the time to commute every day. But a few of the senior devs definitely wouldn't be happy about it as they have kids, family, house etc.. and would kick up a fuss.
One day a week would be fine with me too, *if* the managers coordinated it so our team were actually all there on the same day. (those that live in the same city/country that is).
Pizza seems to be the solution though.
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