Ulythium
Full Member
Lily-livered
Posts: 5,637
Member is Online
|
Post by Ulythium on Apr 1, 2024 16:13:34 GMT
A self-proclaimed Christian nailing herself to a cross in exchange for TERF points over Easter weekend seems... well, pretty on-brand, actually.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2024 16:17:44 GMT
The funniest thing to me about that story is her going “arrest me if I’ve broken a law,” followed by the article stating “ Police Scotland said it had not received any complaints over the posts.”
Just absurdly melodramatic. It’s why I can’t take her posts seriously. She’s like a poorly written, poorly acted play.
|
|
Blue_Mike
Junior Member
Meet Hanako At Embers
Posts: 3,950
|
Post by Blue_Mike on Apr 1, 2024 16:25:07 GMT
It fucking baffles me how someone whose first body of work was basically the clumsiest analogy about racism since Star Trek TOS "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", and yet was itself riddled with racial stereotypes. Like a snake eating its' own tail because it simultaneously enjoys the taste of it's own arse and denies the existence of snakes and arses.
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 1, 2024 23:54:37 GMT
Richard Dawkins bollocking on about finding Ramadan lights concerning.
I still find some of his writing very eloquent and moving - particularly his stuff about actual evolution and science, away from the religous bollocks, but even then I think the God Delusion was a good piece of work that affirmed my atheism.
But, c'mon. Stop being a twat.
Honestly I'd have more respect for more than a few people if they'd just fucking died in the last ten-to-fifteen years. Live long enough and you just see "heroes" become moaning old duffers. (it's not the first time Dawkins has said something I've found eye-rolling tbh.)
|
|
MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,124
|
Post by MolarAm🔵 on Apr 2, 2024 0:20:56 GMT
It's a weird interview. The Ramadan stuff isn't a huge part of it, but he's going on about being a "cultural Christian". Which means, I guess, loving all the trappings of Christianity (lovely cathedrals, hymns, Christmas carols) without, you know, believing in God.
That probably describes most secular people, tbf. But it feels a bit rich for him to be saying that we need to protect our precious Christian symbols from the encroaching Ramadan hordes, when he's been one of the main voices going on about how religion is a delusion and a poison.
Surely the lovely churches are part of the con? They look that grand for a reason!
|
|
|
Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 2, 2024 2:16:26 GMT
...
|
|
|
Post by FlexibleFeline on Apr 2, 2024 5:30:33 GMT
Re: Dawkins, he is brilliant in many ways but I think the stridency is massively counterproductive. Still, it led to the best Daily Mash article of all time: Dawkins now just telling random strangers why he hates them
Paywalled alas"According to local residents, a typical 30 second burst will include phrases such as ‘please don’t have children’, ‘you look like a baptist’, ‘everything about your shoes sickens me’ and ‘your face seems to be inside out’."
|
|
|
Post by Zomoniac on Apr 2, 2024 8:59:06 GMT
Honestly I'd have more respect for more than a few people if they'd just fucking died in the last ten-to-fifteen years. Live long enough and you just see "heroes" become moaning old duffers. (it's not the first time Dawkins has said something I've found eye-rolling tbh.) Hitch seems to back up your theory. Died before he could slide into old man territory.
|
|
Ulythium
Full Member
Lily-livered
Posts: 5,637
Member is Online
|
Post by Ulythium on Apr 2, 2024 9:22:10 GMT
I'm a big fan of Dawkins' work - in fact, I'm reading The Blind Watchmaker at the moment - but he has definitely slid into 'old curmudgeon' territory during the past decade or so.
|
|
|
Post by mothercruncher on Apr 2, 2024 14:22:26 GMT
Yeah- he’s great. And it’s important some religious idiots are picked up on the hypocrisy, the self serving nonesense. I agree he could tone down the rhetoric a touch, but I think he’s just got old and irascible and can no longer sprinkle words with a tiny bit of sugar.
|
|
|
Post by Jambowayoh on Apr 2, 2024 14:50:01 GMT
Hmm, I'm not religious in any sense of the word and yeah the hypocrisy gets my goat, especially those in positions of authority who use religion as an identity and a tool push through their hatred and prejudice but it's worth pointing out the moral superiority that people like Dawkins project, it has a tinge of old white man racism to it tbh.
|
|
|
Post by Jambowayoh on Apr 2, 2024 14:52:16 GMT
It's a weird interview. The Ramadan stuff isn't a huge part of it, but he's going on about being a "cultural Christian". Which means, I guess, loving all the trappings of Christianity (lovely cathedrals, hymns, Christmas carols) without, you know, believing in God. That probably describes most secular people, tbf. But it feels a bit rich for him to be saying that we need to protect our precious Christian symbols from the encroaching Ramadan hordes, when he's been one of the main voices going on about how religion is a delusion and a poison. Surely the lovely churches are part of the con? They look that grand for a reason! Well that's the thing isn't it. He's pretty much saying there's the right religions that he can get on board with the local vicar and village fêtes and there's the wrong sort of religion.
|
|
|
Post by technoish on Apr 2, 2024 15:02:29 GMT
He's been fairly consistent in his views that Islam is more dangerous than other religions as it does not let people leave their beliefs behind. When he debates Islamic scholars they don't usually even disagree with him.
|
|
|
Post by FlexibleFeline on Apr 2, 2024 15:34:52 GMT
Sam Harris is the same. I subscribe to Waking Up but really struggle to get through his overtly religious podcasts (as opposed to ones focused on politics, consciousness, AI etc.); particularly ones that focus on Islam. A large part of that - just as with Dawkins - is the regular conflation of Islam with Jihadism. I always come away from it feeling that for one of the most intelligent and articulate thinkers out there he has a massive blind spot when it comes to that topic.
The recent podcast with Rory Stewart had me firmly siding with Stewart for most of it - Stewart's objections, as someone with extensive experience of living in Muslim-majority countries, were that Harris was just making massive generalisations that weren't borne out by the reality of his experience.
|
|
|
Post by FlexibleFeline on Apr 2, 2024 15:40:53 GMT
But back to Dawkins - I don't think he will, or should, be remembered for his work on Atheism, but his inestimably superior works that really helped popularise complex scientific ideas.
I'd rather listen to Hitchens on religion, to be honest, because at least he's funny most of the time. His debate (paired with Stephen Fry) against Anne Widecombe and Archbishop Oneyaikan on The Catholic Church is a Force for Good is an absolute demolition job, and a masterclass in exposing the sheer absurdity of that sorry organisation (which I belong to until excommunicated by virtue of baptism and the sacraments I was forced to take as part of my delightful Jesuit education).
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,355
|
Post by zephro on Apr 2, 2024 16:07:53 GMT
I may be in a minority here but I always found Dawkins insufferable. Even before the blatant racism or Islamaphobia.
He always gave off the impression that believing in God made you thick and not following his argument was just proof that someone was thick. Even if he was being more subtle the annoying crowd of fanboys that followed him definitely just said that out loud.
Also that science is the only frame of reference for anything ever.
This does mean I never bothered reading his book mind, just articles, tv or debates involving him.
Also good luck getting excommunicated as I'm in a similar boat and you need a fucking Bishop's personal say so. Damned Catholic Church loves having us on the books in perpetuity.
|
|
|
Post by Jambowayoh on Apr 2, 2024 16:14:48 GMT
I may be in a minority here but I always found Dawkins insufferable. Even before the blatant racism or Islamaphobia. He always gave off the impression that believing in God made you thick and not following his argument was just proof that someone was thick. Even if he was being more subtle the annoying crowd of fanboys that followed him definitely just said that out loud. Also that science is the only frame of reference for anything ever. This does mean I never bothered reading his book mind, just articles, tv or debates involving him. Also good luck getting excommunicated as I'm in a similar boat and you need a fucking Bishop's personal say so. Damned Catholic Church loves having us on the books in perpetuity. I'm with you.
|
|
|
Post by FlexibleFeline on Apr 2, 2024 16:20:58 GMT
I may be in a minority here but I always found Dawkins insufferable. Even before the blatant racism or Islamaphobia. He always gave off the impression that believing in God made you thick and not following his argument was just proof that someone was thick. Even if he was being more subtle the annoying crowd of fanboys that followed him definitely just said that out loud. Also that science is the only frame of reference for anything ever. This does mean I never bothered reading his book mind, just articles, tv or debates involving him. Also good luck getting excommunicated as I'm in a similar boat and you need a fucking Bishop's personal say so. Damned Catholic Church loves having us on the books in perpetuity. Thanks for the well-wishes I think re: Dawkins, this is precisely the problem - his public persona, especially in the last 20 years, has done no good at all to any validity in his arguments against religion or (more importantly) his previous body of work. This is on him. There are so many people who may have valid points (to one degree or another) but just fuck it right up by being insufferable in the way they go about it. It's not rocket science, Dawkins.
|
|
Ulythium
Full Member
Lily-livered
Posts: 5,637
Member is Online
|
Post by Ulythium on Apr 2, 2024 16:22:21 GMT
Re Rowling, I'm sure this is just the response for which she was hoping: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68712471Re Dawkins, I'm with Feline - his popular science books (The Selfish Gene/The Blind Watchmaker) are his best work, IMO.
|
|
askew
Full Member
Posts: 6,009
|
Post by askew on Apr 2, 2024 17:13:24 GMT
“Will always protect free speech” but then leads the party clamping down on protest.
“Nooooo, not like that”.
|
|
|
Post by Vandelay on Apr 2, 2024 17:13:33 GMT
From the above BBC article:
Err... Nothing happened, did it? Police have just confirmed that what she said wasn't threatening and so no offence has been committed (although the comments could still be offensive, just not criminally so).
Sounds like this person is trying to make it appear as if the laws have been changed because of JK's twitter posts, where instead it just shows that JK (or her lawyer) has the ability to read the law and know whether she actually would break it by misgendering people. If anything, it goes to show their outrage about the laws being introduced by Scotland are nonsense and scaremongering.
As for Sunak spouting stuff about freedom of speech, I assume that means he will be rappelling our own hate speech rules across the UK then? Of course not, because, unlike the absurdity we see in the US, we rightful do have laws curtailing some speech and those laws will inevitably expand to cover new areas as and when society changes.
|
|
|
Post by mothercruncher on Apr 2, 2024 17:56:58 GMT
Much of the discomfort at the Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris style is because history has programmed us to doff the cap at religious types and their pearls of wisdom. We shouldn’t- they should be prodded and questioned as much as any other philosophy. Good religious people welcome that debate, the charlatans funnily enough don’t because of the danger it’ll reveal the Emperor isn’t wearing any clothes.
Agreed- The Catholic Church is a Force for Good is a brilliant watch and, for Catholics, embarrassing.
|
|
|
Post by simple on Apr 2, 2024 18:10:04 GMT
Considering he invented memes Dawkins really isn’t all that funny
|
|
zephro
Junior Member
Posts: 2,355
|
Post by zephro on Apr 2, 2024 18:39:54 GMT
Thanks for the well-wishes I think re: Dawkins, this is precisely the problem - his public persona, especially in the last 20 years, has done no good at all to any validity in his arguments against religion or (more importantly) his previous body of work. This is on him. There are so many people who may have valid points (to one degree or another) but just fuck it right up by being insufferable in the way they go about it. It's not rocket science, Dawkins. Yeah he's perfectly engaging when he's talking about what he actually knows about, biology. I've seen him be a talking head on nature programs and all fine. On religion I'm not sure I ever really saw him engage with what people actually believe, how they believe it or how theologians or non-science philosophers deal with it. It never really transcends the, genuinely helpful, peer review system when you're doing a science PhD of everyone in the department trying to find the flaw in your logic. Which is usually meant in a friendly way to make you go re-formulate and try again. But it is inherently quite competitive and a bit butch. It does however make Intelligent Design and Creationists look like total cunts. As they idiotically set foot in science's playground. However I've always been that to be a very American problem and relatively fringe in the UK.
|
|
|
Post by simple on Apr 2, 2024 21:24:13 GMT
It might be my internal bias but they really seemed to be implying that Rowling is a bullying troll nobhead on the BBC 10 o’clock news just now.
|
|
|
Post by Chopsen on Apr 2, 2024 22:14:27 GMT
There's a very robust interview with Harris on the Decoding the Gurus podcast few weeks back. It doesn't just cover his atheism, but his performance on it really cemented in my mind that he's largely driven by islamophobia above anything else.
Dawkins is just a nob. He early pop sci stuff is really good. Blind Watchmaker is a masterclass in explaining the nuanced details of what evolutionary theory is, and does it really well. When he gets on to religion though a red mist descends and he loses it.
Religion is a load of old bollocks, mind.
Creationism is a bigger thing in the US, sure. Most Christians in the UK know to reel it in, but there's a lot of batshit stuff going on in mainstream Christianity here. Actively challenging them when it doesn't really impact people in the public sphere (eg through implementing legislation) seems a bit petty. Lots of people have fucking weird ideas. I think it is a bit nuts how we seem to be completely fine with religious schools though as a country.
|
|
|
Post by Danno on Apr 2, 2024 22:29:49 GMT
It might be my internal bias but they really seemed to be implying that Rowling is a bullying troll nobhead on the BBC 10 o’clock news just now. About time.
|
|
rajin
New Member
Posts: 238
|
Post by rajin on Apr 3, 2024 9:03:58 GMT
There's a very robust interview with Harris on the Decoding the Gurus podcast few weeks back. It doesn't just cover his atheism, but his performance on it really cemented in my mind that he's largely driven by islamophobia above anything else. Dawkins is just a nob. He early pop sci stuff is really good. Blind Watchmaker is a masterclass in explaining the nuanced details of what evolutionary theory is, and does it really well. When he gets on to religion though a red mist descends and he loses it. Religion is a load of old bollocks, mind. Creationism is a bigger thing in the US, sure. Most Christians in the UK know to reel it in, but there's a lot of batshit stuff going on in mainstream Christianity here. Actively challenging them when it doesn't really impact people in the public sphere (eg through implementing legislation) seems a bit petty. Lots of people have fucking weird ideas. I think it is a bit nuts how we seem to be completely fine with religious schools though as a country. Just out of curiousity, how do you feel about islamic schools? Basicly, if you believe in freedom of religion as a whole you automaticly also condone religious schools. You can't seperate education in religion from practicising religion.
|
|
|
Post by simple on Apr 3, 2024 11:27:53 GMT
How wide a net are we casting around “religious schools” because I went to Catholic junior and secondary and apart from being selective on that basis and a few prayers here and there they were functionally teaching the same stuff as the neighbouring secular schools - just with better results due to being selective.
I assume that this is broadly the case with other faith schools regardless of religion. Like there can’t be many who are teaching a totally faith-based curriculum to thr exclusion of practical ‘real world’ skills or qualifications.
|
|
myk
New Member
Posts: 676
|
Post by myk on Apr 3, 2024 11:47:18 GMT
I didn't go to a religious school and there were still Christian hymns and stuff, CoE was the 'default' if you will. IMO all schools should be secular, they should teach the curriculum and if parents don't like it, tough.
|
|