anephric
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Post by anephric on Oct 28, 2021 18:43:54 GMT
Yeah, I don't subscribe to that. By the token of 'you can tell jokes about anything' you end with with Bernard Manning. Chappelle's worst crime in his most recent special is that the dollar per joke ratio is astonishingly, astonishingly high.
And people eat it up, I don't know. As I said before, I'm intrigued if the same people Chappelle said shouldn't be laughing at his blackface jokes are the same ones he's gladly taking money from to laugh at his trans jokes. Or right, he only gives a shit about one of those things, gotcha.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Oct 28, 2021 18:49:23 GMT
Murphy is an interesting parallel to Chapelle. His Raw show has loads of homophobic shit in it that's just blatantly disgusting viewed by modern sensibilities. Transgender issues are in a similar position to how homosexuality was in the 80s and 90s, where many people pushed back against their progress claiming they were after their children and other baseless reactionary stuff.
Jokes only work with a collective understanding of the subject. Back in the 80s the collective idea of AIDS was that homosexuals gave it to everyone by kissing them, so Murphy makes jokes about that, and the audience then find it funny. But 10 years later everyone's understanding of AIDS has drastically changed and Murphy regrets making those jokes. The jokes don't work like they did because the collective understanding now clashes with the joke.
Hopefully progress is made with trans rights like they have with homosexual rights, and Chapelle's jokes become regrettable for him in the future.
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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Oct 28, 2021 18:57:26 GMT
But as someone above said, it’s not the material necessarily, it’s punching up vs punching down. I don't see him "punching down" or adopting a position of superiority towards the trans community. It's the absurdity of situations such as Caitlyn Jenner being Woman of the Year in 2015. Or that white trans individuals in the US can go full Karen and call the police on a black guy. I see it more as highlighting the various power imbalances between minorities in the US. |
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Post by 😎 on Oct 28, 2021 19:00:29 GMT
But as someone above said, it’s not the material necessarily, it’s punching up vs punching down. I don't see him "punching down" or adopting a position of superiority towards the trans community. "I'm team TERF, Gender is a fact" seems to fit that pretty well. |
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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Oct 28, 2021 19:01:33 GMT
As a caveat I haven't seen the other more recent shows so can only base it on The Closer.
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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Oct 28, 2021 19:04:23 GMT
I don't see him "punching down" or adopting a position of superiority towards the trans community. "I'm team TERF, Gender is a fact" seems to fit that pretty well. "Trans women are women" We could pick select lines from the show. |
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Post by 😎 on Oct 28, 2021 19:32:31 GMT
We could. That isn't a line from the show. The line is "Gender is a fact, this is a fact. Every human being in this room, every human being on Earth had to pass through the legs of a woman to be on Earth. That is a fact. Now… I am not saying that to say, that trans women aren’t women. I’m just sayin, that those pussies that they got… You know what I mean? I’m not saying it is not pussy, but that’s like Beyond Pussy or Impossible Pussy"
Right after comparing trans women is to women as blackface is to black people.
There's a very obvious context to what he's saying and an arbitrary "I'm not saying trans women aren't women" is a bit "I'm not racist but..." in its semantics.
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Lukus
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Post by Lukus on Oct 28, 2021 19:48:18 GMT
Yeah, I don't subscribe to that. By the token of 'you can tell jokes about anything' you end with with Bernard Manning. Chappelle's worst crime in his most recent special is that the dollar per joke ratio is astonishingly, astonishingly high. And people eat it up, I don't know. As I said before, I'm intrigued if the same people Chappelle said shouldn't be laughing at his blackface jokes are the same ones he's gladly taking money from to laugh at his trans jokes. Or right, he only gives a shit about one of those things, gotcha. You seem to have missed all the other qualifying points surrounding that for some reason... Bernard Manning packaged his jokes up in bigotry and racism rather than multiple layers of thought, self deprecation, context and other ironies, so... And I'm not saying Chapelle has done those things either, I haven't fucking seen it. But given no one bothers to read or understand things these days I guess I need to make that point again. |
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Post by Matt A on Oct 28, 2021 19:50:31 GMT
I didn't like his bit on r Kelly and the fifteen year old girl getting pissed on. It seems like racial politics in the US creates a blind spot with black Americans when there is any racial angle.
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JYM60
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Post by JYM60 on Oct 28, 2021 19:51:32 GMT
How is that even a joke though? I don't get it? Most trans women probably don't have pussies.
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anephric
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Post by anephric on Oct 28, 2021 19:53:04 GMT
Why he is so obsessed about trans women as well, what about trans men? Oh right, because that doesn't offend him because he doesn't give a shit, it doesn't offend his hetero sensibility.
It's all so very basic. You're a basic bitch, Dave. Like all feminists are 'frumpy dykes', like Chappelle can't comprehend that there are black gay people, or black trans people, or black gay trans people. He's so fucking simple and binary. It's ancient creaky humour that is EXACTLY the same as the shit we now wince at from the 80s.
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Post by 😎 on Oct 28, 2021 19:57:25 GMT
When Manning was asked why he told lazy racist jokes he answered "because they get laughs". I think there's some overlap there with Chappelle's recent specials, in that they're kind of lazily saying stuff for the lols instead of the laser focused genius of his earlier stuff.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 28, 2021 19:57:48 GMT
Yeah, I don't subscribe to that. By the token of 'you can tell jokes about anything' you end with with Bernard Manning.
Or, y'know, Richard Pryor:
That's where I tend to start with this stuff: is it funny? Obviously it's a subjective approach, and it's a bit of a slippery slope in some respects - vaguely redolent of the Miller test, i.e. "Does [X] any have artistic merit?" - but we're talking about comedy, dammit, and funniness seems like a reasonable starting point.
Context is pretty crucial as well: is the "joke" made with genuine malice, disguised or otherwise, or is it really and truly a case of "no offence intended"? Hard to judge, particularly in one-off situations; however, Chappelle has walked this particular path before, so he has form for targeting the trans community with his material.
For whatever little it's worth, when judged by the above yardsticks I found The Closer to be both unfunny and spiteful.
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anephric
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Post by anephric on Oct 28, 2021 19:58:25 GMT
Yeah, I don't subscribe to that. By the token of 'you can tell jokes about anything' you end with with Bernard Manning. Chappelle's worst crime in his most recent special is that the dollar per joke ratio is astonishingly, astonishingly high. And people eat it up, I don't know. As I said before, I'm intrigued if the same people Chappelle said shouldn't be laughing at his blackface jokes are the same ones he's gladly taking money from to laugh at his trans jokes. Or right, he only gives a shit about one of those things, gotcha. You seem to have missed all the other qualifying points surrounding that for some reason... Bernard Manning packaged his jokes up in bigotry and racism rather than multiple layers of thought, context and other ironies, so... And I'm not saying Chapelle has done those things either, I haven't fucking seen it. But given no one bothers to read or understand things these days I guess I need to make that point again. No, the argument was 'you can make jokes about anything', not how pseudo-sophisticated you're allegedly making them. And irony is Gervais's thin defence, that winking at the end makes it alright. I would argue there's very little irony in Chappelle's last few shows, whereas he used to revel in it. Maybe sitting in his castle forever having smoke blown up his ass killed that off. |
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Oct 28, 2021 19:58:26 GMT
If we're doing quotes here's a whole section.
By his own admission he's been mining trans people for *a while*.
That he even brings up punching down, questions what that means and never explores that question means he sees that point as self evident somehow. He's perfectly aware that he's rich as fuck and jokes about it in regards to lots of other things, but the fact he can't apply similar logic here just shows how clouded his judgment is here.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 28, 2021 20:03:53 GMT
To be willingly ignorant about a simple idea like "punching up" or "punching down" has definitely marked him out as a knob. It's hardly a new fucking concept or phrase.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Oct 28, 2021 20:06:33 GMT
But he's a soothsayer for our time...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2021 20:12:03 GMT
If we're doing quotes here's a whole section. By his own admission he's been mining trans people for *a while*. That he even brings up punching down, questions what that means and never explores that question means he sees that point as self evident somehow. He's perfectly aware that he's rich as fuck and jokes about it in regards to lots of other things, but the fact he can't apply similar logic here just shows how clouded his judgment is here. Chappelle's style is to seemingly have a throwaway line at the beginning then to come back and tie it up at the end of the show. Him not exploring "punching down," then ending with "please, trans community, don't punch down on me" after getting into things like "gays are a minority until they have to be white again," talking about Karens calling cops on black people for having a cookout, talking about the white LGBT community excluding black LGBT members in their fight.. that was his point. He even punctuates his point at the end where he says "if you've been listening to my shows, my problem has never been with the trans community, it's always been with white people." Now, if you have a problem with that statement, that's another issue, but to focus on the term "punching down" is missing the point. |
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Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 28, 2021 20:14:18 GMT
it's almost like intersectionality doesn't exist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2021 20:16:06 GMT
Yeah, but that's the point he's making.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 28, 2021 20:19:34 GMT
But his point is flawed, as the "trans community" isn't punching down on him. Sure, some trans folks are hideously racist, but thats not a community, it's an individual.
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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Oct 28, 2021 20:29:40 GMT
The reality is he's had a lot or abuse and death threats, calls for him to "be lynched" now some of that is Twitter so its hard to verify someone isn't simply a troll looking for attention.
Surely the vitriol and abuse he receives from white people trans or otherwise could be considered punching down? The fact he's wealthy doesn't suddenly mean he isn't a minority or subject to discrimination.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2021 20:31:56 GMT
But his point is flawed, as the "trans community" isn't punching down on him. Sure, some trans folks are hideously racist, but thats not a community, it's an individual. You must not be familiar with the US. Or the internet, for that matter. |
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Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 28, 2021 20:35:20 GMT
I've must have missed the rampant racism apparent in the trans community.
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anephric
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Post by anephric on Oct 28, 2021 20:36:06 GMT
If he's going to double down on the ridiculously flawed argument that the trans movement is some kind of Trojan horse for white privilege over black people again, he might want to address the huge elephant in the room of multiple studies showing sexual intolerance is greater in the African-American community than in Caucasian American. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia_in_ethnic_minority_communitiesSo yeah, white trans people punching down. This is all getting too hot under the collar for my liking, so I'm going to go sit at my front window and laugh at gingers as they come by. |
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anephric
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Post by anephric on Oct 28, 2021 20:39:46 GMT
I forgot to add a wink.
*wink*
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Post by dfunked on Oct 28, 2021 20:49:05 GMT
Always gets a bit uncomfortable if you laugh directly at the gingers without a cheeky wink
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Post by Aunt Alison on Oct 28, 2021 20:50:48 GMT
We had a ginger family that lived down the road, everyone just treated them like they were normal
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Dgzter
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Post by Dgzter on Oct 28, 2021 20:52:44 GMT
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Lukus
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Post by Lukus on Oct 28, 2021 21:12:48 GMT
You seem to have missed all the other qualifying points surrounding that for some reason... Bernard Manning packaged his jokes up in bigotry and racism rather than multiple layers of thought, context and other ironies, so... And I'm not saying Chapelle has done those things either, I haven't fucking seen it. But given no one bothers to read or understand things these days I guess I need to make that point again. No, the argument was 'you can make jokes about anything', not how pseudo-sophisticated you're allegedly making them. And irony is Gervais's thin defence, that winking at the end makes it alright. I would argue there's very little irony in Chappelle's last few shows, whereas he used to revel in it. Maybe sitting in his castle forever having smoke blown up his ass killed that off. Thanks for telling me what my argument was. And again missing the wider point somehow. There's a massive difference between an acceptable/funny/interesting joke or bit involving a sensitive or controversial subject matter, and a joke or bit done by some daft old relic that most decent people will find pretty grim. |
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