Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 21, 2023 21:06:52 GMT
A solid effort from England, but I feel South Africa deserved to win (albeit only just).
The scrum proved decisive in the end.
Time to ring the changes after the 3rd/4th-place playoff next week - some players need to be thanked for their service and put out to pasture for good.
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Post by Danno on Oct 21, 2023 21:17:31 GMT
We absolutely didn't deserve to get to the final all things considered. Credit due for matching South Africa's physicality, but really we need a reset and a rebuild now. The scrum is certainly a major worry though. Why don't we have any decent front row forwards under 30? Development pathways for the the u18s/u20s were gutted a few years back by that cunt Dean Ryan and have stymied that, plus our big hopes in players like Beno Obano, Alfie Barbeary, Stuart Painter, Will Stuart and others I can't recall are injury magnets or can't kick on. Hooker should be a lot better but both Eddie and now Smelly Bumscratch have failed to give any meaningful gametime to e.g. Theo Dan, Byron McGuigan, Nic Dolly, Tom Dunn, Jack Walker |
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Post by Danno on Oct 21, 2023 21:29:20 GMT
A solid effort from England, but I feel South Africa deserved to win (albeit only just). The scrum proved decisive in the end. Time to ring the changes after the 3rd/4th-place playoff next week - some players need to be thanked for their service and put out to pasture for good. I'd rip out all of the backs tbh. Mitchell is super inconsistent, Steward only has one trick and the rest are ancient. In the pack, Billy should be forced to open the Ark of the Covenant, George, Lawes, Cole and Marler won't make 2024 let alone 2027 and I'm starting to think Chessum+Martin is going to be something special, so Itoje needs to up his game some - and if Chessum Jr develops this season then all bets are off. Vague stab at a 6n team Genge/Rodd Dan/Walker Sinckler/Stuart O. Chessum/Itoje Martin Ludlam/Curry Earl/B Curry/Pearson Mercer/T Willis Quirke/Warr Smith/Ford (it will be Farrell because of a 50m DG today) Adam Radwan/Arundell/OHC Seb Atkinson/Dan Kelly Ollie Lawrence Watson Tommy Freeman/Joe Carpenter |
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Post by elstoof on Oct 21, 2023 21:35:41 GMT
Martin was the best player in the pitch for me. Mitchell was even slower than Youngs
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Post by Danno on Oct 21, 2023 21:51:30 GMT
Martin was the best player in the pitch for me. Mitchell was even slower than Youngs Kicks were absolutely on point though, and that was very much the gameplan. Was subbed right as he was flagging so decent game management there from Slags Bumwaver |
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Post by grey_matters on Oct 22, 2023 0:01:46 GMT
Seems like the best English perfomance for a long time to me. All of the good points of the loss against Ireland with 14 men but with the full 15. Early talk was not getting out of the group, late talk is that they were the better team (knife edge call as it is) against a wonderful SA side but losing out on a place in the final by incredibly fine margins. Hopefully Borthwick has more in his locker than he has shown up until this WC and this can be a kick on for the next world cup for you.
As Danno said, get the younger ones game time by whatever means. England has such a large number of players, even if the system isn't producing world class ones as often as it should, there'll be silver and bronze nuggets too. We need to do the same but for fewer positions (I hope) but also with a smaller player bank, taking the losses and building for 2 years hence seems like the proper aim.
A sliver from winning a WC final place on merit, exceeding expectations massively, has to be a positive launching point though. Well, has to have the potential of being one, lets see about the rest.
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Post by Dougs on Oct 22, 2023 0:08:53 GMT
Ooof. What an exhausting day of sport. Always felt like we were short but fuck me, we gave it a go. Felt proud of them for the first time all tournament and the tactics so nearly worked. Just got ground down in the scrum yoo much by the end. Glorious failure again.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Oct 22, 2023 0:16:51 GMT
We absolutely didn't deserve to get to the final all things considered. Credit due for matching South Africa's physicality, but really we need a reset and a rebuild now. The scrum is certainly a major worry though. Why don't we have any decent front row forwards under 30? Development pathways for the the u18s/u20s were gutted a few years back by that cunt Dean Ryan and have stymied that, plus our big hopes in players like Beno Obano, Alfie Barbeary, Stuart Painter, Will Stuart and others I can't recall are injury magnets or can't kick on. Hooker should be a lot better but both Eddie and now Smelly Bumscratch have failed to give any meaningful gametime to e.g. Theo Dan, Byron McGuigan, Nic Dolly, Tom Dunn, Jack Walker Wait Byron McGuigan is a hooker now?  |
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Post by Danno on Oct 22, 2023 0:19:10 GMT
Development pathways for the the u18s/u20s were gutted a few years back by that cunt Dean Ryan and have stymied that, plus our big hopes in players like Beno Obano, Alfie Barbeary, Stuart Painter, Will Stuart and others I can't recall are injury magnets or can't kick on. Hooker should be a lot better but both Eddie and now Smelly Bumscratch have failed to give any meaningful gametime to e.g. Theo Dan, Byron McGuigan, Nic Dolly, Tom Dunn, Jack Walker Wait Byron McGuigan is a hooker now? My bad, meant George |
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 22, 2023 16:51:13 GMT
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alastair
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Post by alastair on Oct 23, 2023 5:13:14 GMT
Rumours about spurious HIAs for the SA players in the QF to find them a 15 min breather.
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Post by elstoof on Oct 23, 2023 6:36:29 GMT
They always seem to have way more than 7 subs
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sport✅
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Post by sport✅ on Oct 23, 2023 8:32:27 GMT
The infamous 8-4 split.
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Post by elstoof on Oct 23, 2023 9:31:40 GMT
Dean Richards is their head injury consultant
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 23, 2023 10:01:12 GMT
Courtney Lawes has announced his intention to retire from international rugby after the World Cup.
This isn't meant to sound as harsh as it probably does, but I hope he's the first of many - guys like Cole, Vunipola, Care, Tuilagi, Marler, May, Youngs etc. need to make way for the next crop of players ASAP, and I don't trust Borthwick to make that decision for himself. (I'd include Farrell in this list, but we all know he'll be captaining England until he can't get around without a Zimmer frame.)
The more retirements we see, the fewer members of the old guard will end up being shoehorned into the Six Nations squad.
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Post by elstoof on Oct 23, 2023 10:07:26 GMT
Most of those will lumber on until 2025 at least, they’ll want their extra £23k per match for as long as it’s offered
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 23, 2023 12:10:21 GMT
Rumours about spurious HIAs for the SA players in the QF to find them a 15 min breather. My South African colleague certainly seemed to think this was the case. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 23, 2023 12:15:43 GMT
Courtney Lawes has announced his intention to retire from international rugby after the World Cup. This isn't meant to sound as harsh as it probably does, but I hope he's the first of many - guys like Cole, Vunipola, Care, Tuilagi, Marler, May, Youngs etc. need to make way for the next crop of players ASAP, and I don't trust Borthwick to make that decision for himself. (I'd include Farrell in this list, but we all know he'll be captaining England until he can't get around without a Zimmer frame.) The more retirements we see, the fewer members of the old guard will end up being shoehorned into the Six Nations squad. Intuitively I agree though I thought Matt Dawson's piece for the BBC website on Sunday was an interesting counterargument. He was pointing to the likes of Sexton and Vermeulen as a reason not to arbitrarily get rid of anyone over 32s and was cautioning about too much chop and changing in the aftermath. Lawes will be missed, he's been an absolute stalwart but if you don't feel you can commit to another four year cycle, go now. To me it's really about a four year plan and identifying who the core is as fast as possible. |
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Post by bichii2 on Oct 23, 2023 13:20:51 GMT
Well cole and marler could actually scrum against s.a. unlike the replacements.
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Post by muddyfunster on Oct 23, 2023 13:40:56 GMT
Indeed, I must admit prior to reading Dawson's comments I was quite ready to start with some ageist chopping, but on reflection, I think he has a good point.
It'd be foolish to look at the 2023 World Cup collectively and conclude that rugby players in their mid to late thirties have no value.
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Post by bichii2 on Oct 23, 2023 13:48:55 GMT
Aren't a lot of south Africa's brilliant players pretty old as well?
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 23, 2023 14:04:02 GMT
I'm certainly not in favour of imposing some sort of mandatory retirement age for international rugby players, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of the veterans stick around if they're still bringing something to the table, but I think too many of the Class of '23 were living off past glories.
As critical as I've been of Borthwick's England, I'm willing to cut him a fair amount of slack given the circumstances in which he took over the job - parachuted in ahead of schedule when Jones was finally shoved out of the door, with only a Six Nations campaign and a few warm-up matches before the World Cup got underway.
Going into 2024, he won't have those justifications on which to rely. The squad he names in January will be truly his, not something he inherited from his predecessor or knocked together with the World Cup looming overhead like the Sword of Damocles, and in my view he needs to be looking ahead to RWC 2027 already.
It's a good time to do it, too - with Ireland and Wales both facing rebuilds of their own, and Italy permanently in the doldrums, it's not as though a new-look England squad would be dead certs for the wooden spoon in the next 6N.
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Post by rhaegyr on Oct 23, 2023 14:10:13 GMT
Just get rid of Vunipola. Please.
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Post by Danno on Oct 23, 2023 14:43:03 GMT
Aren't a lot of south Africa's brilliant players pretty old as well? Think they only have one player under 25 in the entire squad? Lots of oldies as you say, all the way up to Fourie (37) and Vermuelen (38) |
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Oct 23, 2023 18:08:31 GMT
Yeah if everyone, except Scotland, could do a full team re-build for the Six Nations. That'd be great. (we would still do a Scotland and fuck it of course)
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 25, 2023 11:56:40 GMT
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askew
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Post by askew on Oct 25, 2023 12:54:51 GMT
Quite a few changes. “Bronze Final” though? 🫣
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 25, 2023 13:44:26 GMT
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Post by Danno on Oct 25, 2023 14:03:20 GMT
Only about 65 caps too late |
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Oct 25, 2023 14:32:10 GMT
The 'Bronze Final' must surely be the most pointless game in the rugby calendar.
It seems particularly indefensible to make players endure a full-on Test match in an era in which we're [supposed to be] concerned about player welfare, and more so still when one considers that the domestic seasons are now underway across Europe - how irritated would you be if one of your club's main players picked up a serious injury in a game that defines the term, "dead rubber"?
That said, it's a thing whether I like it or not, and I'd kind of hoped Borthwick would take the shackles off for this match: tell the players to go out and enjoy themselves, and give the likely/announced retirees one last run-out in the white shirts.
I'm expecting another dreary, uncreative, and attritional gameplan, though.
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