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Post by quadfather on Aug 18, 2024 11:24:25 GMT
Yeah I quite like sigil, it's pretty challenging
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 12:04:47 GMT
Prodeus has some sublime level design in the back half in particular. I think it just suffers from its enemy design, a lot of them just feel like glorified turrets.
Sigil is decent, its main weakness is being a Doom WAD and not a Doom 2 one and you end up having to shotgun far too many cacodemons to death.
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Post by quadfather on Aug 18, 2024 12:08:47 GMT
Tch, a real pro just needs a chainsaw  |
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 12:20:06 GMT
I think my top recommendations for throwback shooters would be:
Amid Evil
Cultic
Dusk
Ion Fury (if you can stomach that the devs are dickheads)
Roboquest
Selaco
Ultrakill
Turbo Overkill
And then as a second tier of worth looking at but not as great there's Boltgun, Hrot, Prodeus.
I like Nightmare Reaper a lot but it's a bit hideous visually and the looter shooter side of it might not be for everyone.
I have a bunch of stuff to play as well along these lines - Desecrators (roguelike Descent?), Frogmonster (metroidvania FPS), Wizordum (waiting for it to leave Early Access), Project Warlock II (same), Zortch (kind of a parody) and Wrath Aeon of Ruin.
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Aug 18, 2024 14:20:56 GMT
Sigil done too. On UV, it sure was hard. Several times I just ended up running past demons and leaving them behind. I liked a few of the ideas, and the enviroment looks striking, but it also makes the automap a lot harder to read, and I swear too many Cyberdemons are simply there to make sure you can't just explore at your leisure. Prodeus has some sublime level design in the back half in particular. I think it just suffers from its enemy design, a lot of them just feel like glorified turrets. Sigil is decent, its main weakness is being a Doom WAD and not a Doom 2 one and you end up having to shotgun far too many cacodemons to death.
Prodeus suffers from making its best levels only available in the second half. Level design in the first half is as boring as they come. I'm not that big a fan of boomer shooters, as too many of them nowadays either rely on kill rooms, or give you annoying gimmicks that break the flow of the shooting, or employ roguelite mechanics. I'll take the simple design of Doom and Quake over that much bloat any day of the week. Still, I enjoyed Boltgun a lot (in spite of the map design) and I still have Turbo Overkill on the backburner. |
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 14:55:06 GMT
Of my list above I think it's only really Roboquest that has the roguelike mechanics, and that's because it's literally a rouglike  I dislike the kill room stuff as well, and I wish the newer Doom games did less of it. Most of the games I've listed there avoid it, with the exception of Ultrakill, which gets a pass because it's blatantly riffing on Devil May Cry but as an FPS. |
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Aug 18, 2024 15:13:48 GMT
Ion Fury is my shout (dev aside)
I didn't get far enough to see the second half of Prodeus because I just found it too dull. All grey, no character, annoying weapons- a shotgun you have to charge, a railgun that has to be zoomed in to fire, dual machine guns that fire for about 4 seconds before you run out of ammo and boring enemies
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Aug 18, 2024 16:50:22 GMT
Boltgun had fun shooting but the map design was awful, it really sucked the fun out of the game
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Post by dfunked on Aug 18, 2024 17:35:36 GMT
Yeah, that's what keeps me from going back to finish it. Absolutely loved the shooting, but my god those were some shitty maps. Felt like finding your way was a pure fluke on some.
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 18:15:23 GMT
Boltgun's biggest issue for me was that on Normal is was a bit bloody easy and on Hard it still wasn't all that hard, just the feedback for when you're taking damage sucked and the enemies had ridiculous amounts of health.
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Aug 21, 2024 19:21:27 GMT
Amazing how much lower quality the maps in Doom 2 feel. While the new monsters are pretty good and super shotgun feels amazing, the maps basically boil down to finding switches that open up doors with a million weak monsters.
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Aug 21, 2024 19:47:49 GMT
I think it's a real weakness to not be able to appreciate Doom 2. A real weakness. I do not have that
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 21, 2024 20:09:35 GMT
Doom 2 brings a few new great things to the table, but honestly most of the level design is ass. There are some standouts, most notably map29, but if I fire up Doom 1 afterwards, it's striking how much more interesting most maps are, at least architecturally.
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Aug 21, 2024 20:19:45 GMT
You're missing half the enemies though and the super shotgun is sorely missed The first few maps in Doom 2 feel right in a way Doom doesn't. It just feels richer
Everything up to Dead Simple is strong, then I take them as they come. Similar to the first episode of Doom
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Post by Reviewer on Aug 21, 2024 20:30:25 GMT
Doom 2016 replayed and finished in a week. Easy 9/10 and the perfect length.
Working on Doom 1 in between a replay of Portal 2.
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Post by Duffking on Aug 21, 2024 23:15:28 GMT
Doom 2 has too many Sandy Petersen maps, which are always just... worse. His are like half the game.
Doom 2 obviously has a lot more potential to tap in custom stuff though with the expanded enemy library and SSG. And the custom content shows it.
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Post by simple on Aug 21, 2024 23:34:10 GMT
Am I Mandela Effecting myself or did the PS1 version (as well as missing some maps* and the Archvile) remix some of the maps to tweak their layouts slightly and ,more importantly, include Doom 2 enemies and the super shotgun in the Doom 1 portion of the game?
*and maybe including PS exclusives, Club Doom maybe? I’ve played so many iterations and ports I’m losing track now.
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Aug 22, 2024 2:55:25 GMT
Don't know about PSX, but they did that with some of the ports IIRC.
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Post by Duffking on Aug 22, 2024 11:11:07 GMT
Am I Mandela Effecting myself or did the PS1 version (as well as missing some maps* and the Archvile) remix some of the maps to tweak their layouts slightly and ,more importantly, include Doom 2 enemies and the super shotgun in the Doom 1 portion of the game? *and maybe including PS exclusives, Club Doom maybe? I’ve played so many iterations and ports I’m losing track now. Doom on PSX is indeed Doom + Doom 2, basically. Doom wiki lists out a bunch of the differences: doomwiki.org/wiki/Sony_PlayStation#Differences_from_PCPlus I think it inherits all the other changes the Jaugar port made as it's based on that. |
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Post by simple on Aug 22, 2024 11:41:24 GMT
I played that single level demo disc they mention to death before I could afford the full game. I still have it in the case for the full game as it was only in a paper sleeve but the game shipped in a double disc jewel case rather than a Playstation branded box for some reason.
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Post by dangerousdave on Aug 22, 2024 11:57:12 GMT
I guess today is the day I learned that I’ve completed Doom 2. I rinsed the PlayStation Doom back in the day, but didn’t realise it was technically both games. |
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 22, 2024 12:03:08 GMT
You're missing half the enemies though and the super shotgun is sorely missed I do miss super shotgun and some enemies like Revenants, however I can easily do without most of the other new enemies. No Arch-Viles and Pain Elementals is actually a good thing in my book. To be fair, Doom 1 has quite a few duds too. I agree that Doom 2's early game is pretty strong too, but to me they're not quite on the same level as Doom ep1. Same about the rest of the game, in both games it's a drop in quality but in Doom 2 I find it even worse. Add to that that they're bigger and more drawn out and usually I just quit around the middle because it's such a slog. Being not quite as bad imo and more reasonably sized, in Doom 1 I'm much more likely to finish a game I start. Doom 1's soundtrack is better too, that also helps a lot I guess. Doom 2 has too many Sandy Petersen maps, which are always just... worse. His are like half the game. I mean, of the 18 maps of ep. 2 & 3 he has sole credit on 11 and finished the maps Tom Hall started on the rest. So you could also say about the original Doom that he made half the game. |
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Post by quadfather on Aug 22, 2024 12:06:30 GMT
Now we're getting into controversial territory /popcorn |
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Aug 22, 2024 12:26:42 GMT
Wow, I'm so not up to speed with videogame facts that I only know Sandy Petersen from Petersen Games, a board game company run by Sandy Petersen that only publishes Sandy Petersen games.
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Post by Duffking on Aug 22, 2024 18:51:24 GMT
You're missing half the enemies though and the super shotgun is sorely missed I do miss super shotgun and some enemies like Revenants, however I can easily do without most of the other new enemies. No Arch-Viles and Pain Elementals is actually a good thing in my book. To be fair, Doom 1 has quite a few duds too. I agree that Doom 2's early game is pretty strong too, but to me they're not quite on the same level as Doom ep1. Same about the rest of the game, in both games it's a drop in quality but in Doom 2 I find it even worse. Add to that that they're bigger and more drawn out and usually I just quit around the middle because it's such a slog. Being not quite as bad imo and more reasonably sized, in Doom 1 I'm much more likely to finish a game I start. Doom 1's soundtrack is better too, that also helps a lot I guess. Doom 2 has too many Sandy Petersen maps, which are always just... worse. His are like half the game. I mean, of the 18 maps of ep. 2 & 3 he has sole credit on 11 and finished the maps Tom Hall started on the rest. So you could also say about the original Doom that he made half the game. Let's be honest, Episode 3 is significantly weaker than the other 2 episodes and episode 1 is the best one 
His maps are a mixed bag, he just went off the deep end for a lot of them in Doom 2. No flow or real direction to them, just... stuff. I think he had a lot of interesting concepts but struggled to follow through with them. And yeah, he has credits on a lot of 1's maps but many of them weren't totally his in episode 2, it's mostly 3 that's his iirc?
I don't really mind the lack of the Super Shotty in 1 - it's essential for 2 because it deals with enemies that sit in the middle ground of too chunky to shotgun but feels like a waste of all your bigger ammo.
It's mainly cacodemons in 1 that fit that bill (unless there's a bit horde of them like in some wads, then I'm happy to plasma/rocket them), but 2 adds in revenants, mancubus, etc etc that you *could* spend rockets or plasma on but you'd rather not unless in a pinch, and the SSG is perfect for them. So I don't miss it so much in 1. Minus Sigil, which has a bit *too* much blasting Cacos with shotgun.
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Aug 22, 2024 22:38:03 GMT
I don't miss the Super Shotgun out of necessity, I miss it because it's a load of fun to use. The new enemies fill out the higher tier which needed some variety. The worst Doom can throw at you are Cacodemons and Barons, which starts to get old, especially without a Super Shotgun. Using the Rocket Launcher on Cacodemons is a pain as it knocks them away. Love the Arch-vile myself- he's got a really unique attack, looks and sounds creepy as all hell and can be an absolute menace in the right conditions
I think people are too quick to say maps are just bad. A map like Slough of Despair doesn't play all that great but it's still cool that it looks like a hand (it is). I also find some of the maps that don't necessarily flow well fun as it adds a kind of puzzle element to finding the way forward. Downtown is a mess but it is cool finding your path through it and wondering where the next teleport will send you
Some things work, some things don't, but there's always demons to kill, so it's OK
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Post by Duffking on Aug 23, 2024 14:05:37 GMT
Speaking of Doom 1 WADs I've been playing some I skipped in the past or never fully completed.
Sigil - I only ever played like 2/3s of this before and didn't come back because it just didn't grab me. It's not bad, but a bit behind the times compared to other stuff. It's a lot fairer than Thy Flesh Consumed, has some neat ideas and is generally pretty tight in both design and physical spaces. But it doesn't really feel like it's giving you much of a workout even on UV difficulty, compared to something like...
Base Ganymede - I got Doom 1 Wads can be so tough with that smaller enemy set. I think part of the challenge is just the ammo scarcity, but it's got a lot of the design sensibilities of Doom 2 maps just... in Doom 1. There's lots of nasty traps, tough encounter spaces, etc etc. And unlike Sigil it's happy to give you some of the bigger guns early, but is then very stingy with the ammo in many cases. Or failing that, will give you the ammo then force you to spend it all in a trap. It's chucking unavoidable cyberdemon fights in tight spaces at you by map 5.
I haven't played Legacy of Rust yet, but I will say that of the "official" map sets I think Plutonia and No Rest for the Living are still the best.
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Aug 23, 2024 17:34:01 GMT
I repeat: the best Doom maps are the ones that give you tons of shotgun ammo. Making you run out of ammo and forcing you to either run for your life or making every shot count, isn't that fun. What's fun is shooting demons in the face, one by one, and moving on quickly. Doom 2 makes the mistake of just swarming you with too many tougher enemies, so too often you gotta spray and pray (or maybe make a run for it). Sigil has too many tougher enemies and no super shotgun, so it becomes a bore. A curated shooting gallery with carefully chosen enemies that pose a threat but can be dispatched without wasting a lot of time with the right weapon, is really what's best. And admittedly, it's what is closest to Quake in several ways.
On a side note, that's Doom 2 finished. I will be moving up to No Rest for the Living and Legacy of Rust later, but for now, let's change genre. I've got Lost in Random sitting on my Series S hard drive for a while now...
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 23, 2024 18:58:59 GMT
I agree Doom should have plenty of ammo, conserving ammo like it's Resi or something is just antithetical to Doom imo.
Anyway, I decided to play through the games too again with the new soundtrack, it's been a while. And damn, I forgot how fucking good this game feels. For an official port it's amazing, it's not like you really needed it on PC but so far it does everything I want from it. I also didn't expect to like the new soundtrack, I pretty much always prefer the original one in remastered games--especially if it's as iconic as Doom's--but this is great too. I must say I'm really happy with it.
Went through episode 1 today, yeah it's pretty easy but still great fun.
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Post by Duffking on Aug 23, 2024 19:44:40 GMT
Unfortunately one of the main ways doom 1 wads can challenge you with the limited enemy set is to limit your shotgun ammo lol
It is worth getting comfy chain gunning the zombies though imo. Helps a ton with the shotgun ammo.
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I dislike the kill room stuff as well, and I wish the newer Doom games did less of it. Most of the games I've listed there avoid it, with the exception of Ultrakill, which gets a pass because it's blatantly riffing on Devil May Cry but as an FPS.
