lexw
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Post by lexw on Apr 6, 2022 14:33:09 GMT
Next episode of Moon Knight is up and it moves quite a bit faster though does have a couple slightly eye-roll-y scenes. I enjoyed it. Khonshu remains an utter delight in all ways. Also excellent music on the credits.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 6, 2022 14:36:11 GMT
Still just think the X-Men have no real place in the Wider Marvel universe. Comics or otherwise.
I mean there has been some fun character combinations in the past but ultimately I still think they're better off being separate.
The refugee angle positioned by aubergine is the best idea I've heard though tbh.
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Apr 6, 2022 16:48:14 GMT
Still just think the X-Men have no real place in the Wider Marvel universe. Comics or otherwise. I feel like this is an opinion basically no-one had until the MCU was a thing, personally, and I think it like is kind of revisionist to the history of Marvel comics and to how the X-Men and members or related groups thereof were a big part of a lot of stuff. I think the reality is they fit in just fine, but the MCU, because they didn't have rights, and Perlmutter was a twat, elaborately built itself a way to not have them, and that's had impacts right up to recently (no way they'd have bothered with Eternals - easily the most boring and hollow MCU film, if pretty - if they'd have rights to the X-Men stuff). Of course it seems like they're changing course very slightly already with Multiverse of Madness (which seemingly includes Captain Pic... I mean some version of Charles Xavier and, if the poster is to be believed, Deadpool ). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2022 17:02:19 GMT
Yeah, they always played a big part of the overall comics and cartoons. There'd be crossover issues with like Spidey or Nick Fury all the time, and when there was a big galactic threat, they'd always be up there beside Iron Man and Cap.
They do have their own struggles that're self contained, but every superhero does.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 6, 2022 17:18:14 GMT
Still just think the X-Men have no real place in the Wider Marvel universe. Comics or otherwise. I feel like this is an opinion basically no-one had until the MCU was a thing, personally, and I think it like is kind of revisionist to the history of Marvel comics and to how the X-Men and members or related groups thereof were a big part of a lot of stuff. I think the reality is they fit in just fine, but the MCU, because they didn't have rights, and Perlmutter was a twat, elaborately built itself a way to not have them, and that's had impacts right up to recently (no way they'd have bothered with Eternals - easily the most boring and hollow MCU film, if pretty - if they'd have rights to the X-Men stuff). Of course it seems like they're changing course very slightly already with Multiverse of Madness (which seemingly includes Captain Pic... I mean some version of Charles Xavier and, if the poster is to be believed, Deadpool ). I've had that opinion for way, way before the MCU existed. |
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Apr 6, 2022 17:19:07 GMT
Fair enough, I've just seen it suddenly become more popular in literally the last 2-3 years, I think when MCU fans realized the waves the X-Men might make if they join the MCU.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Apr 6, 2022 17:30:42 GMT
The view is more prevalent now, I agree. But that's because there is no satisfying way to bring them into the MCU.
And I like many of the individual crossovers. The characters themselves work well in the hero and villain galleries.
What I've always found odd, whenever these crossovers happened, is the whole mutants = others thing. The whole racism allegory. That particular aspect, which is one of the more compelling aspects of the X-Men world building, just doesn't work in the wider universe.
When that particular aspect is ignored it's fine.
But I think it's a fundamental aspect, so I've always felt irked.
I can go along with it but I've always just a fundamentally broken plot in the wider scheme of things.
I'd rather they just don't bother with that allegory and just use the characters tbh.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Apr 6, 2022 19:05:39 GMT
Deadpool and Spiderman is the most likely crossover, tbh. I can see Fox working a deal with Sony.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2022 19:14:09 GMT
Disney owns Fox, so it's all the same thing now.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Apr 6, 2022 19:21:20 GMT
Deadpool and Spiderman is the most likely crossover, tbh. I can see Fox working a deal with Sony. I can't see that happening. The tone of both films do not match in the slightest. |
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Post by beastmaster on Apr 6, 2022 20:19:52 GMT
I know we’ve had this whole discussion in the past. My take on it was that they should have the X-Men be introduced to the MCU as escapees from an alternate universe, and then people can treat them like shit because they are refugees. So you get your classic Mistreated Mutants without having to retcon that they were somehow always there, like with The Eternals, and refugee treatment is much more topical. I like that as a solution. Plus they’re not boring as shit like the Eternals so their separateness is a strength not weakness. Wanda - “Let there be mutants!”. Done. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2022 20:42:47 GMT
Kevin Smith has thrown out that same idea. Reverse House of M. It sounds so goofy though if the concept of mutants doesn't already exist, how would she create them?
Just use the comic Children of the Atom, or whatever similar nuclear or even intergalactic calamity origin. Even in the comics, mutants came decades after Fantastic Four, Cap and the like, and it's worked out fine since.
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and just enjoy the ride (if it will in fact be an enjoyable ride).
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Post by 😎 on Apr 6, 2022 21:00:33 GMT
Somehow, mutants returned.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 6, 2022 21:27:31 GMT
You just use the snap. Mutants were always around but in small enough numbers to stay hidden and the snap activated the dormant x-gene of people who were returned. That way you can have your young ones who need schooling and the older ones who groom them.
£1m, please
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Post by 😎 on Apr 6, 2022 21:39:42 GMT
Or just one of the seventy other universe altering things that have happened in the past x movies and will probably happen in the next few.
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anephric
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Post by anephric on Apr 6, 2022 21:53:13 GMT
Or if you want another big Endgame kind of cycle, set up Secret Wars and have the mutants introduced through that, coming from Earth 4282 or something.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 6, 2022 21:58:04 GMT
Maybe although it’s probably all academic. I suspect we will get a Doctor Bong movie before we get an MCU xmen one
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Apr 7, 2022 0:42:36 GMT
Still just think the X-Men have no real place in the Wider Marvel universe. Comics or otherwise. I feel like this is an opinion basically no-one had until the MCU was a thing, personally, and I think it like is kind of revisionist to the history of Marvel comics and to how the X-Men and members or related groups thereof were a big part of a lot of stuff. I think the reality is they fit in just fine, but the MCU, because they didn't have rights, and Perlmutter was a twat, elaborately built itself a way to not have them, and that's had impacts right up to recently (no way they'd have bothered with Eternals - easily the most boring and hollow MCU film, if pretty - if they'd have rights to the X-Men stuff). Of course it seems like they're changing course very slightly already with Multiverse of Madness (which seemingly includes Captain Pic... I mean some version of Charles Xavier and, if the poster is to be believed, Deadpool ). I always found it weird that the X-Men have this racism analogy treatment but every other superhero in the Marvel world everyone is absolutely fine with. I mean J Jonah Jameson harasses Spider-Man but I don’t think Jameson has a eugenics issue or something. Actually, now I’m wondering why Jameson doesn’t have a eugenics issue and isn’t flogging X-Men in every edition. |
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Apr 7, 2022 2:26:31 GMT
I always found it weird that the X-Men have this racism analogy treatment but every other superhero in the Marvel world everyone is absolutely fine with. I mean J Jonah Jameson harasses Spider-Man but I don’t think Jameson has a eugenics issue or something. Do you want the super-nerdy answer? I mean I'll give it to you anyway lol. So, from Marvel lore perspective, and this is '80s and '90s lore so it may have been updated since, but whilst the terms may have changed the concepts will likely remain, Spider-Man and the X-Men are two fundamentally different things. Spider-Man is what was termed an "altered human" (I don't think they use that anymore), which is to say, he didn't have the X-gene, his powers were gained by being bitten by a radioactive spider, but he's not a mutant - it wasn't inherent to his DNA and there's no particular reason to believe his kids would inherit his powers, whereas they would inherit the X-gene. Another term was "mutate" vs. "mutant". People with the X-gene are mutants, people who don't have the X-gene but whose DNA is altered are "mutates" (weird language but that's what was used). The X-Men and all mutants have the X-gene, which is transmissible from parent to child, and you don't necessarily get powers in any way related to your parent, and those powers are often hidden until trauma activates them (I presume the new X-men stuff has updated this a fair bit but again I suspect it's broadly similar). So you could have a character exactly like Spider-Man only his powers are from his X-gene (indeed, it looks like Earth 13270 Spiderman is a mutant, though it's unclear what his powers are), and not a radioactive spider. Captain America, Daredevil, etc. they're all altered humans. I can't remember if Wanda is in the MCU but I think they intentionally muddied the water there. If there's no X-gene there's no "born this way" and no "their kids will be this way" and less "they might marry my daughter!" factors, and also very little "they could be anyone!!!", because altered humans tend to have highly unique origins. Whereas literally anyone could be a mutant. As for J Jonah Jameson I don't know the current lore but historically he wasn't some Alex Jones-esque all-round bigot or whatever, he was very particularly laser-focused on fucking hating the shit out of Spider-Man, in a "fuck that guy in particular" kind of way. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 7, 2022 2:43:00 GMT
Do you want the super-nerdy answer? I mean I'll give it to you anyway lol.  It all makes sense on paper, and also mostly in the comics where you just have a whole bunch of stuff going on all over the place. But it would come across as a bit weird in something more tightly focused like the MCU if you had everyone loving spiderman/hulk while hating wolverine/colossus. Also, in general the general public don't know the origins of most of the superheroes, right? So how would they know if spiderman is an altered-human to be loved, or a mutant to be hated? I imagine they can throw in a vague handwavy explanation and skim past it though. they're pretty good at that. All this vaguely reminds me that I meant to check out The Gifted at some point, if only because it has Angel alums in it (though that didn't help The Runaways to not be shit). |
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Post by 😎 on Apr 7, 2022 2:55:10 GMT
When Wanda was first introduced in the MCU it was implied she was altered by Hydra’s experiments with the mind stone, but then WandaVision retconned it into “she was magic the whole time anyway” and that the experiments just brought it out. Doesn’t quite explain Pietro, but there we go. I've now jinxed someone into coming along and going “bUt ThAt’S nOt A rEtCoN”. Whoever that someone is, you’re a dick |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 7, 2022 3:13:10 GMT
Wasn't there some weird licensing agreement reason why Age of Ultron had to make them 'altered' rather than having innate powers?
The weird vagaries of marvel licensing are beyond me, but I think I heard that.
I guess wandaVision was post them buying Fox(?) so they could do innate stuff again? ?
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Post by 😎 on Apr 7, 2022 3:19:23 GMT
Yeah. Couldn’t call them mutants, couldn’t call them Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver. In the same way that Fox’s X-Men couldn’t call him Pietro, but had to settle for Peter.
And then Ralph Bohner happened and everyone rolled their collective eyes.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Apr 7, 2022 4:00:34 GMT
Huh huh  it will never not be funny. |
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kal
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Post by kal on Apr 7, 2022 6:40:00 GMT
Every single criticism or challenge of any hero comes down to writing. Good writing can solve anything. It’s why I get so frustrated with ‘Superman is boring’ comments. Batman was the most comically ridiculous superhero until Dennis O'Neil made him relevant again. Anything can be done.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 7, 2022 6:42:41 GMT
I think they changed the scarlet witch in the comics to bring her more in line with films, so she is officially not a mutant anymore.
Undoing years of stories just so people so saying ‘what’s the deal with Wanda?’ feels a bit extreme but hey…
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 7, 2022 6:43:52 GMT
Oh, and nobody reads comics so everyone did go ‘what’s up with Wanda and mutants?’ during wandavision anyway.
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kal
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Post by kal on Apr 7, 2022 7:01:19 GMT
When they go and find Quicksilver in Days of Future Past, the camera does a nice long longer on the MAXIMOFF mailbox, and they drop a pretty big hint that Magneto is his dad too.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Apr 7, 2022 7:56:25 GMT
Which I think is one of the things that got peoples Bohners twitching about Evan Peters cameo.
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aubergine
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Post by aubergine on Apr 7, 2022 9:33:37 GMT
The reason is that Fox owned X-Men and related terms like “mutant” and Disney owned Avengers, and for rights purposes, Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver are both Avengers characters and X-Men characters.
But the MCU couldn’t refer to them as mutants so they shuffled in “Miracles” and were potentially angling to make Inhumans more of a thing. They had to leave out that their father was Magneto. They implied that they got their powers from the Mind Stone but also had an easy out to say they were mutants later because everyone else subjected to the Mind Stone experiments died, so clearly something made QS and SW different.
In the end, Disney realised that fucking around with trying to rename Mutants in the MCU was stupid when they had billlions of dollars with which to simply BUY Fox, problem solved.
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