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Post by Whizzo on Jul 21, 2023 9:13:32 GMT
Secret Invasion threatens everyone on Earth but only Nick Fury can save the day and won't get help from anyone with powers because of (budgetary) reasons and we're supposed to enjoy something so poorly done?
We already know it's going to make fuck all difference as today's fun The Marvels trailer shows, it's a major event that happened in the comics and it's pretty much a disposable side story, like having Darth Vader popping to his local Tesco Express before the Battle of Endor. Which, thinking about it, would make more sense than someone having multiple secret tomb boxes to keep every small item he's known for.
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Post by beastmaster on Jul 21, 2023 9:19:55 GMT
I gave up on Secret Invasion after two episodes and did the same on Ms. Marvel after three. Not really interested in the future slate of D+ series but will give them a chance.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 21, 2023 10:27:00 GMT
Ms Marvel was good fun, but I haven't even bothered with a D+ marvel series since Hawkeye, and I don't see any of the upcoming ones changing that. (No, scratch that, I watched She-Hulk, but that was so refreshingly non-MCU that I keep forgetting to include it)
Echo? A tv show set around a side character from a Hawkeye spin-off tv show?
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Post by Whizzo on Jul 21, 2023 10:29:05 GMT
Given how Echo is going to be dropped in one day when it comes out I wouldn't hold out too much on it. I liked the character in Hawkeye but clearly Disney has no confidence in it.
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Post by Nemesis on Jul 21, 2023 10:37:51 GMT
Secret Invasion threatens everyone on Earth but only Nick Fury can save the day and won't get help from anyone with powers because of (budgetary) reasons and we're supposed to enjoy something so poorly done? We already know it's going to make fuck all difference as today's fun The Marvels trailer shows, it's a major event that happened in the comics and it's pretty much a disposable side story, like having Darth Vader popping to his local Tesco Express before the Battle of Endor. Which, thinking about it, would make more sense than someone having multiple secret tomb boxes to keep every small item he's known for. “I'll have the penne arrabiata" "You'll need a tray"
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 11:15:40 GMT
Sonya Falsworth would understand that reference.
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Post by simple on Jul 21, 2023 11:17:35 GMT
I don’t know how Echo got commissioned. Unless they’re going to use it to bridge the gap to the returning Netflix characters I don’t know what the point of it is either. She was barely a character in Hawkeye.
Also, on Secret Invasion, once I realised Gravik was the guy who did post-mortems on Vera before Dennis Pennis took over I couldn’t see him as anything other than a very British terrestrial tv presence.
Olivia Coleman is fun though. Maybe they’ll do a spin-off of her competing against Julia Lewis-Dreyfus from Falcon. I’d watch those two exchanging verbals for sure.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 21, 2023 11:32:51 GMT
I believe Echo changed a lot of is only like 4 or 6 episodes.
I do agree that the TV stuff has really diluted the main movie brand.
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 11:39:38 GMT
I think Echo was something that kind of happened organically, like they were encouraged to do more D+ stuff and they liked the combination of actor and character when making Hawkeye and thought it would be a good opportunity. But I agree, I don't really feel the character popped enough to support her own show. Hawkeye was good, though, so who knows?
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Derblington
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Post by Derblington on Jul 21, 2023 11:42:31 GMT
I haven’t seen al of SI yet but I assumed The Marvels takes place prior.
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Post by simple on Jul 21, 2023 11:43:51 GMT
I assume the new Black Widow and Kate will turn up in something like Thunderbolts or the Captain Falcon movie rather than getting D+ spin-offs of their own.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 21, 2023 13:29:33 GMT
Yeah, I dunno what they're planning for the new Hawkeye. She was good, and is a good actress. Pugh is becoming a big name too, so you'd think they'd want to use them in movies not D+ tv shows. Captain Falcon?
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 13:49:53 GMT
Since the first few post-Endgame movies, I've assumed the whole thing was moving towards a new Avengers team made up of, say, Sam-Cap, Yelena-Widow, Kate-Hawkeye, Suri-Panther, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, Shang-Chi, and maybe Doctor Strange and War Machine as the "old guard".
But it feels like a long time and no Avengers!
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kal
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Post by kal on Jul 21, 2023 13:55:30 GMT
Since the first few post-Endgame movies, I've assumed the whole thing was moving towards a new Avengers team made up of, say, Sam-Cap, Yelena-Widow, Kate-Hawkeye, Suri-Panther, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, Shang-Chi, and maybe Doctor Strange and War Machine as the "old guard". But it feels like a long time and no Avengers! Just feels like such a bunch of b-listers, both in terms of characters and actors. Really feels like they need a bit of a talent injection to get anyone to give a fuck again.
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Vandelay
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Post by Vandelay on Jul 21, 2023 14:05:13 GMT
Is Anthony Mackie b-tier? Certainly wouldn't say Florence Pugh was. Hailee Stanfield has been in a lot of good things and I fully expect her to be a household name in the years to come.
I wouldn't say any of those are anymore b-tier than Chris Evens, Chris Hemsworth or Tom Holland when they took on their Marvel roles.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 21, 2023 14:09:43 GMT
The original avengers actors weren't really A-Listers at the start though. RDJ arguably, but before Iron Man his career was in the toilet. ScarJo definitely. Evans, maybe? Not really Hemsworth or Ruffalo.
Pugh and Steinfeld are good and well known. Tatiana Maslany and Ms Marvel-girl are good. Suri was a very popular character, but I've not seen BP2. Shang-Chi I've not seen.
The problem seems to me more in terms of characters, in that they're all basically version 2 of a character that another actor established for over 10 years.
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Post by simple on Jul 21, 2023 14:46:52 GMT
I know the multiverse thing has been front and centre for awhile now but I’m quite interested in how the Kree in the Marvels trailer appears to have the same powers as Ms Marvel because the Ten Rings are obviously the same magic/tech as well. So there appears to be a thread tying the newer characters together in a way that the new Hawkeye, Black Widow, Black Panther and Iron Heart don’t have.
Although obviously replacing all those male heroes with young female equivalents is going somewhere too.
And Thunderbolts should help create some anti-Avengers.
I think its probably best to just treat the whole thing as an expanded universe though. Or maybe three or four parallel threads - the espionage line, the rings line, the multiverse line etc and maybe they’ll pull together or maybe not.
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 21, 2023 15:41:00 GMT
Is Anthony Mackie b-tier? Certainly wouldn't say Florence Pugh was. Hailee Stanfield has been in a lot of good things and I fully expect her to be a household name in the years to come. I wouldn't say any of those are anymore b-tier than Chris Evens, Chris Hemsworth or Tom Holland when they took on their Marvel roles. B tier is slightly generous for Mackie as an actor. A lot of those were b tier before but they had a lot of excellent talent supporting them and they put in good performances as well as being charismatic. There’s just too many b out c tier playing b or c tier marvel characters (relative to what’s already been done) and have very little charisma. F4 and xmen need some excellent talent. Even if it’s not a bunch of a listers they need to find some very charismatic talent.
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kal
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Post by kal on Jul 21, 2023 15:46:45 GMT
The original avengers actors weren't really A-Listers at the start though. RDJ arguably, but before Iron Man his career was in the toilet. ScarJo definitely. Evans, maybe? Not really Hemsworth or Ruffalo. Pugh and Steinfeld are good and well known. Tatiana Maslany and Ms Marvel-girl are good. Suri was a very popular character, but I've not seen BP2. Shang-Chi I've not seen. The problem seems to me more in terms of characters, in that they're all basically version 2 of a character that another actor established for over 10 years. Iron Man was packed with massive names and Oscar winners to give a halo effect to what came after. It legitimised the whole thing. It badly needs that kind of level again.
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Jul 21, 2023 15:48:21 GMT
Is Anthony Mackie b-tier? Very much so.
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Post by 😎 on Jul 21, 2023 15:55:08 GMT
His real name is Clarence
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Vandelay
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Post by Vandelay on Jul 21, 2023 16:02:15 GMT
What you think about his acting ability is irrelevant. I would say he is a bigger name than any of the first bunch of Avengers, besides Downey Jr. Same with Florence Pugh.
Kal makes a reasonable point about the Iron Man film, but you certainly can't say they had big star power for any of the other films in the first couple of phases.
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 16:02:30 GMT
I think when the OG Avengers were cast you had:
RDJ, genuine star but career had faded before Iron Man Chris Evans, supporting star/young heartthrob given breakout role Scarlet Johansen, genuine star but maybe on the cusp of A-list at the time Ruffalo, very famous and well-known actor but not a leading man* Renner, indie-cred famous but not A-list Hemsworth, basically unknown
So I think the comparative "fame" of supposed current or future Avengers is comparable, but I do take the point that any "successor hero" will feel like a second banana after such an iconic character (even if, say, Steinfeld is arguably going to pop bigger than Renner)
* - edited to add the asterisk I forgot about - Edward Norton was, of course, originally cast as the Hulk, and yes, he was a proper star. So maybe that shifts the star-to-not-quite-a-star ratio a little bit.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Jul 21, 2023 16:06:30 GMT
Or we could say they managed to hold lightning in the bottle for longer than people expected and now it's gone.
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kal
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Post by kal on Jul 21, 2023 16:14:22 GMT
I think when the OG Avengers were cast you had: RDJ, genuine star but career had faded before Iron Man Chris Evans, supporting star/young heartthrob given breakout role Scarlet Johansen, genuine star but maybe on the cusp of A-list at the time Ruffalo, very famous and well-known actor but not a leading man* Renner, indie-cred famous but not A-list Hemsworth, basically unknown So I think the comparative "fame" of supposed current or future Avengers is comparable, but I do take the point that any "successor hero" will feel like a second banana after such an iconic character (even if, say, Steinfeld is arguably going to pop bigger than Renner) Some serious revisionist bullshit here. RDJ and Edward Norton were the stars of the first two films and were both heavyweight Oscar winners. Renner was twice nominated also as was Ruffalo. They were all far bigger names than the current crop.
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 16:15:14 GMT
I still think the roles are very well cast - Pugh is well on her way to being huge; Mackey is a very charismatic and funny actor - but yeah, whether they can capture the magic of that original team is another matter.
I keep saying it, but whatever happens with Avengers, X-Men and FF will probably light a fresh fire under the whole thing.
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 16:19:46 GMT
I think when the OG Avengers were cast you had: RDJ, genuine star but career had faded before Iron Man Chris Evans, supporting star/young heartthrob given breakout role Scarlet Johansen, genuine star but maybe on the cusp of A-list at the time Ruffalo, very famous and well-known actor but not a leading man* Renner, indie-cred famous but not A-list Hemsworth, basically unknown So I think the comparative "fame" of supposed current or future Avengers is comparable, but I do take the point that any "successor hero" will feel like a second banana after such an iconic character (even if, say, Steinfeld is arguably going to pop bigger than Renner) Some serious revisionist bullshit here. RDJ and Edward Norton were the stars of the first two films and were both heavyweight Oscar winners. Renner was twice nominated also as was Ruffalo. They were all far bigger names than the current crop. RDJ's career was so fucked he was fired off Ally McBeal halfway through an arc. They literally wrote him out of an episode where he married the show's star because he was considered too great an insurance risk. People thought casting him as the lead in a superhero movie was a hell of a gamble, and he was paid less than Terrence Howard as Rhodey. Yes, Renner was in Hurt Locker, but was still in that indie-darling-trying-out-at-being-a-star phase. You could strongly argue that, apart from Marvel, he's never quite broken through; obviously still a good actor, obviously still capable of leading a film, but I doubt you'd try to hang a franchise on him again after Bourne and Mission. My asterisk was supposed to say "but Norton was originally cast as the Hulk and he was a proper A-list star". And how about you don't start slinging "bullshit" at people expressing opinions? Also - and this is very important - the MCU is a much, much bigger star itself nowadays. They don't really need to cast, I dunno, Will Smith as Wolverine, because the MCU itself is the draw. Whereas you needed RDJ because no one had heard of Iron Man; you needed Norton because the last Hulk movie was squiffily received. That sort of thing.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 21, 2023 16:23:02 GMT
The hilarious thing was they gave Downey Jr a points based contract and we all know how that turned out with how much fucking money he made.
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Post by britesparc on Jul 21, 2023 16:24:46 GMT
Didn't he make something fucking stupid like $175m off Avengers?
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 21, 2023 16:26:56 GMT
Didn't he make something fucking stupid like $175m off Avengers? His whole contract earnings is around 435 million dollars. Disney were so fucked off.
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