MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,088
|
Post by MolarAm🔵 on Oct 22, 2022 10:48:07 GMT
Yeah the author would have hated the movie, because it took the fascist undertones of the book and made the humans literally fascists.
The movie is better.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2022 10:59:59 GMT
Yeah the author would have hated the movie, because it took the fascist undertones of the book and made the humans literally fascists. The movie is better. I think that is a little unfair. While the book is arguably fascist Heinlein did explore many ideas in his books without endorsing them. He really was an ideas guy, not someone pushing agenda. He also did communist and hippy books. Stranger in a strange land for instance which argues quite strongly against the starship troopers politics.
|
|
MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,088
|
Post by MolarAm🔵 on Oct 22, 2022 11:05:05 GMT
I dunno, he seemed like a bit of a weirdo. Not that there's anything especially unusual about that (many SF writers are a bit weird), but the books I've read of his have been pretty politically conservative.
But maybe he was a leftie when he was younger? People change.
|
|
Mark1412
Junior Member
Posts: 1,686
Member is Online
|
Post by Mark1412 on Oct 22, 2022 11:52:57 GMT
A read it a while back now, but adored The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and found it really funny. Might read it again.
|
|
|
Post by Bill in the rain on Oct 22, 2022 13:40:52 GMT
Just been on a wikipedia dive, and it seems he did get more conservative as he got older. He generally described himself as libertarian. But as is often the case, it's much less black and white than that. For example, he was pretty feminist, while also being pretty stereotypical about women. He was pretty anti-racist.
Jonny Rico in the book is Filipino, but the movie recast everyone as white guys.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2022 16:10:09 GMT
He was a weird but very interesting man.
Was pro trans and had trans characters and explored them but also all women have perky tits and belong in a kitchen. Fascinating how he was so progressive but also a product of his era.
Also very pro guns, "an armed society is a polite society", into free love and polygamy, explored the importance of religion in very controversial ways (stranger in a strange land), liked communism (moon is a harsh mistress), thought slavery was an inevitable part of human development (citizen of the galaxy) and so on.
I really need to read him again, been a few years.
|
|
|
Post by Chopper on Oct 23, 2022 8:49:33 GMT
Ha, yeah, I need to watch the film asap.
I'll give Heinlein the benefit of the doubt in this case - even though the 'civics' sections in Starship Troopers seem awfully didactic, they do seem to exist 'within' the fiction, and it doesn't sound like the author intruding, or endorsing as Ryan said above, to me. However, reading about the Cuban missile crisis recently, I saw that some of the generals there were frothing at the mouth to get the nukes in the air, so not sure his thesis holds up And I wonder what he'd make of the QAnon General Flynn and those guys these days.
The way women are portrayed, is more like a 50s mindset intruding on the fiction, to my eyes. But that's normal enough, I'm not going to ding him for that. I read the first few pages of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress before I bought it, and it looks like appreciation for women in that, by the invitation of the women themselves, is expressed via cat calls and wolf whistles, so that looks like it'll be a ride (it's set on a former penal colony on the moon). It seems much more dynamic than Starship Troopers and is fun to read, as noted above, so looking forward to it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 16:52:37 GMT
Yeah, pretty sure Starship Troopers was meant to be satirical. It's only in recent years that it's been taken more seriously.
|
|
|
Post by Chopper on Oct 26, 2022 9:17:54 GMT
So I've been pretty much reading at random this last year or two, picking books off 'best of' lists and wishlisting them on Amazon and waiting for sales. Due to this approach, I now have 151 unread books on my Kindle - it's the gaming backlog all over again. But anyway, with all that I'm reading, there have been very few real standouts, especially in the spy/detective/thriller genre. And by that I mean that there doesn't seem to be much in my personal sweet spot somewhere in between Pulp and Literature. I haven't found the next LeCarre, unfortunately.
Until...maybe...now. I finished Los Alamos by Joseph Kanon last night and was very impressed by it. An investigator is called to the scene of a gay-bashing murder, the victim found in a public park in Santa Fe, New Mexico, with his trousers round his ankles and his face battered in. The problem is that it is early 1945 and the victim worked in security in the nearby Los Alamos laboratory which is racing to make the atomic bomb. The murder doesn't look right. Has there been a security breach? Were others from the site involved? Could he have been passing secrets to the other side?
What elevates the book is the bigger-picture stuff - the scientists working on the bomb and the moral implications which they are thinking more of as they get closer to that goal; the military and the beginnings of the 'red scare' mindset as they try and keep the project secret from the Russians; the news coming out of the liberated concentration camps in Germany as the allies advance in 1945. It's phenomenally well done and I'd highly recommend this book for anyone who's looking for a meatier than usual detective novel.
|
|
JonFE
Junior Member
Uncomfortably numb...
Posts: 1,429
Member is Online
|
Post by JonFE on Oct 26, 2022 10:47:03 GMT
The Hellbound Heart I have to say that Clive Barker's writing style is pretty impressive, but I also think some of the changes in the Hellraiser movie were ultimately for the better. There are very few characters here, and half of them are blank slates, whereas the movie gives them a bit more of a personality. Also, I'd say the the imagery is actually gorier in Hellraiser. 7/10 Still a fun read for a couple afternoons (it's quite short), and made me curious about his other books. Anything in particular worth reading? I absolutely LOVE WeaveWorld (must be one of the few books I re-read recently), but it's more fantasy than horror and can be quite a commitment as it's not short. Barker's imagination in it runs wild...
|
|
wunty
Full Member
Pastry Forward
Posts: 5,115
|
Post by wunty on Oct 26, 2022 11:06:41 GMT
Weaveworld is awesome. It's my third favourite Barker behind The Damnation Game and Coldheart Canyon.
|
|
JonFE
Junior Member
Uncomfortably numb...
Posts: 1,429
Member is Online
|
Post by JonFE on Oct 26, 2022 11:20:20 GMT
wunty Great minds and all that jazz
Edit: I've also enjoyed The Great and Secret Show and Everville and one of these days I will actually finish Imagica (restarting it first, again!)... IMHO, you can't go wrong with Clive Barker
|
|
|
Post by rhaegyr on Oct 26, 2022 11:35:12 GMT
First Law Trilogy
Some great characters, development and storylines all undone by a damp squib of an ending. Subversive but not really satisfying. Shame.
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 26, 2022 12:24:57 GMT
Hm.
I disagree with the damp squib ending entirely, but each to their own. Abercrombie is my favourite living fantasy author
Tbh the only fantasy author I've enjoyed more is Pratchett, and I think there's a weird Venn overlap between them
|
|
dogbot
Full Member
Posts: 8,738
|
Post by dogbot on Oct 26, 2022 13:13:52 GMT
Hm. I disagree with the damp squib ending entirely, but each to their own. Abercrombie is my favourite living fantasy author Tbh the only fantasy author I've enjoyed more is Pratchett, and I think there's a weird Venn overlap between them Well, they were both in Somerset. I enjoyed the First Law, but I also thought the ending was rather disappointing. Although it does continue somewhat in the following (standalone) books (which are not as good). I enjoyed the second, follow up trilogy - the Age of Madness - much less. He's another one of those authors like George Martin, whose fans talk about him "ripping up tropes", but those slightly less enamoured tend not to see it that way and aren't quite so definitive. That said, his books are much better than Martin's.
|
|
|
Post by rhaegyr on Oct 26, 2022 13:21:57 GMT
Hm. I disagree with the damp squib ending entirely, but each to their own. Abercrombie is my favourite living fantasy author Tbh the only fantasy author I've enjoyed more is Pratchett, and I think there's a weird Venn overlap between them I think it's because all the character development was rendered null and void in most cases. Ferro is the worst example - back to being a one note character thirsty for revenge. Logen, Jezal and Glokta - all go through character changes and developments in the second book (and part of the third) but then they're back where they started by the end of the trilogy. Literally in Logen's case. Maybe that was the point? If so I can admire the subversion but like I said, it didn't really satisfy in the slightest. I'm not after a happy ending, just a bit of finality.
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 26, 2022 13:25:02 GMT
Oh I don't think he's super revolutionary, but I like his characters and think his books are very funny, there's a very strong black humour present. I find good books generally quite gripping. And I really loved the just trilogy too.
The overlap with Pratchett is that I think many of the characters share a world-weariness and cynicism. I mean, Tunny is pretty much Colon/Nobbs. I find some of the humour in Abercrombie's books quite Pratchett-esque at times. Both series actually have technology advancing, whilst most fantasy worlds stay static.
I mean, the cynicism and violence is dialled up massively in Abercrombie's work and the satire is dialled up in Pratchett's, and is more optimistic, but I genuinely think they have, at the core, a fairly similar world view.
That's the Heroes-esque hill I'm going to die on.
|
|
|
Post by rhaegyr on Oct 26, 2022 13:25:37 GMT
Hm. I disagree with the damp squib ending entirely, but each to their own. Abercrombie is my favourite living fantasy author Tbh the only fantasy author I've enjoyed more is Pratchett, and I think there's a weird Venn overlap between them Well, they were both in Somerset. I enjoyed the First Law, but I also thought the ending was rather disappointing. Although it does continue somewhat in the following (standalone) books (which are not as good). I enjoyed the second, follow up trilogy - the Age of Madness - much less. He's another one of those authors like George Martin, whose fans talk about him "ripping up tropes", but those slightly less enamoured tend not to see it that way and aren't quite so definitive. That said, his books are much better than Martin's. Dang - I've asked for the Age of Madness trilogy as a birthday present as I hoped it would be more refined/tighter in the years since the original trilogy. Love the characters and the setting - really gutted the trilogy ended the way it did as it's soured me quite a bit
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 26, 2022 13:27:56 GMT
I think the anti-development is intentional. It's a core theme of his novels, characters try to do better and improve, but fall back into old habits when they encounter familiar situations.
I think it reads quite true.
It's an explicit world view in Best Served Cold
"Sometimes men change for the better. Sometimes men change for the worse. And often, very often, given time and opportunity . . .’ He waved his flask around for a moment, then shrugged. ‘They change back."
Also I think The Heroes is the best thing Abercrombie has wrote, so disagree that the standalones are not as good.
And Orso in the last trilogy is my favourite character in any medium in the last decade.
|
|
|
Post by rhaegyr on Oct 26, 2022 13:33:44 GMT
Is that the Duke of Talins you see near the end of Last Argument of Kings?
Have to say I loved Bayaz and his character - a guy you think is Gandalf but is actually Sauron.
|
|
|
Post by drhickman1983 on Oct 26, 2022 13:37:21 GMT
Is that the Duke of Talins you see near the end of Last Argument of Kings? Have to say I loved Bayaz and his character - a guy you think is Gandalf but is actually Sauron. Orso in The Age of Madness trilogy is a character named after The Duke of Talins. Orso is Jezal's son, so the Duke of Talins would be his grandfather, I think. Something like that, anyway
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2022 19:18:44 GMT
I loved the first law trilogy, one of my favourite series in a while.
The follow up... not so much. I love the ride, page by page is fun but the nihilism drags and it is surfacely funny but just bitter underneath.
Yes, I know all his stuff is grimdark but it is like warhammer, a sense of fun overlays it, but the second trilogy lacked that. I actually felt really depressed at the end of the last one.
|
|
Rich
Junior Member
Posts: 1,792
|
Post by Rich on Nov 6, 2022 20:28:27 GMT
Dune Enjoyed the first 2/3rds of the book, but the last part felt really rushed and unsatisfactory. Paul was such a dick by the end that I found myself thinking it would have been better if the Baron had won. Genuinely baffled now as to why it's held in such high regard. 6/10
|
|
MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,088
|
Post by MolarAm🔵 on Nov 7, 2022 2:53:54 GMT
I enjoyed listening to the First Law trilogy.
But the narrator consistently pronounced the word 'grimace' (which Abercrombie's characters do a lot of) as 'griMACE', which I was never able to ignore. It was like nails on a chalkboard, every single time.
It got fixed for the second trilogy, weirdly enough. But I thought the second trilogy wasn't quite as good, at least partly because the "Oh you like this character? Well guess what, something terrible is going to happen to them" became almost predictable.
|
|
MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,088
|
Post by MolarAm🔵 on Nov 7, 2022 2:54:26 GMT
That said, the second trilogy had far stronger characters. Particularly female characters.
|
|
|
Post by ToomuchFluffy on Nov 7, 2022 4:53:12 GMT
Dune Enjoyed the first 2/3rds of the book, but the last part felt really rushed and unsatisfactory. Paul was such a dick by the end that I found myself thinking it would have been better if the Baron had won. Genuinely baffled now as to why it's held in such high regard. 6/10 I honestly don't remember anything about that. But changing the course of the galaxy with the help of inexplicably super-powered noble savages felt a bit silly to me. I never finished it after that.
|
|
MolarAm🔵
Full Member
Bad at games
Posts: 6,088
|
Post by MolarAm🔵 on Nov 7, 2022 4:59:49 GMT
If you think Paul is a dick in Dune... might want to hold off reading the sequels.
|
|
|
Post by Dougs on Nov 7, 2022 7:06:12 GMT
Where the Crawdads Sing (now a new motion picture etc). 8/10.
Not my usual genre, but really well written and I loved the use of language. Really evocative of the time and place. The actual story isn't terribly original but it's well told and I enjoyed it a lot.
|
|
Rich
Junior Member
Posts: 1,792
|
Post by Rich on Nov 7, 2022 7:34:15 GMT
If you think Paul is a dick in Dune... might want to hold off reading the sequels. I don't think that's something I'll need to worry about.
|
|
|
Post by Nanocrystal on Nov 7, 2022 10:53:09 GMT
Has anyone here read the Temeraire series (what if the Napoleonic wars but with dragons)? I've just started the first book but the fact that the dragon can speak perfect english straight after hatching seems fucking stupid to me and is putting me off what otherwise seems like a pretty cool concept.
|
|