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Star Trek
Mar 11, 2023 23:13:17 GMT
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Post by simple on Mar 11, 2023 23:13:17 GMT
Would technical issues with the streaming platform really make that much difference when virtually the only light in the room is coming from their consoles?
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Mar 11, 2023 23:32:23 GMT
It's not a brightness/contrast issue. The lights just aren't on. And it's been like this since they met the Captain for dinner, it's not like it's a red-alert situation. It looking "correct" I mean at the time First Contact had darker lighting: Or yknow actual TNG:
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myk
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Post by myk on Mar 12, 2023 0:25:13 GMT
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Deleted
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Star Trek
Mar 12, 2023 0:31:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2023 0:31:59 GMT
T A R E W
(That's troubled water)
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myk
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Post by myk on Mar 12, 2023 0:33:10 GMT
The galaxy class was the cruise liner, everything else is function over form, a bit more industrial and submarine-like
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Mar 12, 2023 0:46:42 GMT
Eh that's the Defiant at red-alert, they turned the lights on bright when it was cruising around. Yknow when DRAMA wasn't happening. Whereas Captain what's his face from the USS Titan was eating dinner in the dark.
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Post by RadicalRex on Mar 12, 2023 3:34:20 GMT
Maybe he's from the MU
Dun dun dun
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Post by simple on Mar 12, 2023 8:47:10 GMT
He was eating like Denethor in LOTR too. Evil close up eating.
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on Mar 13, 2023 11:55:26 GMT
The Next Generation rewatch continues. Last nights episode was "The Outcast". It was doing so well looking at LGBT rights etc. until it shat the bed in the last two minutes with "never mind all that shit, conversion therapy works".
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 12:04:09 GMT
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Post by simple on Mar 13, 2023 12:04:09 GMT
Didn’t Frakes want the horny alien to be played by a man in that one?
I remember thinking during my rewatch that it was a sad ending that was meant to leave you thinking how unjust it was that they were denied their freedom to love.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 12:20:34 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Mar 13, 2023 12:20:34 GMT
I don't recall with that episode specifically, but I remember rewatching a few years ago and being surprised just how many episodes concluded with downer endings. Quite regularly they would have to make compromises no one was happy with or cave into not interfering with a culture/jurisdiction even if they strongly disagreed with it.
Was counter to my memory of it pretty much always being all smiles as the Enterprise flew off.
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geefe
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 12:23:03 GMT
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Post by geefe on Mar 13, 2023 12:23:03 GMT
Oh there's plenty of downers in the series, for sure.
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on Mar 13, 2023 12:57:16 GMT
Didn’t Frakes want the horny alien to be played by a man in that one? I remember thinking during my rewatch that it was a sad ending that was meant to leave you thinking how unjust it was that they were denied their freedom to love. Yes, he did say that apparently. Yeah, the nobody but the system wins ending was definitely a bit shit. At the very least they could have had her get some support and stay behind to further a rights movement or somesuch. Also, Geordies beard looks stupid.
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Post by Whizzo on Mar 13, 2023 12:59:46 GMT
Oh there's plenty of downers in the series, for sure. But working bridge lighting though so there is that.
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Post by RadicalRex on Mar 13, 2023 13:04:06 GMT
The Next Generation rewatch continues. Last nights episode was "The Outcast". It was doing so well looking at LGBT rights etc. until it shat the bed in the last two minutes with "never mind all that shit, conversion therapy works". That's not the vibe I got from that. The thing is, there are people who after going through conversion therapy either claim to have been "cured" or, even worse, actually believing they are. Believing they're free from sin now, having found back to God again, and will tell others who are afraid of conversion therapy that it works and they're happy now and it will help them to find back to God too. It's horrific. That's the connection I made when watching that scene, I thought "oh my God what did they do to her", not "what, it's supposed to work?". I believe that was the writer's (Jeri Taylor) intention, but admittedly, assuming that this is the case, the episode doesn't do a great job at making that clear. The original script describes her as "detached" and "disconnected" in that scene, strengthening my belief that it was intended to signify some sort of brainwashing or lobotomy or whatever that erased her identity. Earlier in the episode, she tells Riker how there was a boy at school who was "treated" and was then put in front of the class to tell the others how happy they were now that they're "cured". She tells him how terrified she was and I thought that was meant to be justified fear. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it. But even if the writer intended something doesn't necessarily mean the director, producers, other people involved in making the episode honour that intent, which admittedly does raise questions about what the episode as shown on screen is trying to do. In this case, very notably, Riker explicitly mentions sexual orientation in the script, but that was cut from the final episode. What's more, the script describes the J'naii as "strikingly attractive, with lithe, slim bodies and chiseled, delicate features". I think it's pretty clear that the on-screen design tried to do the opposite, trying their best to make these genderless people drab and grey and unalluring. Which all ties into the oppressively cishet-normative nature of Classic Trek, especially in the Berman era that not just ignored, but actively erased the existence of LGBT+ people, following Rick Berman's no-gays-in-space mantra. In Classic Trek, there are exactly two kinds of humans: men (they dig women) and women (they dig men). Nothing else exists. Highlighted e.g. in "The Offspring" before Lal chooses a gender: And so, if writers wanted to say something about homosexuality, they didn't (at least not only) have to fight network execs, but their own boss. Which may or may not have played a role in e.g. this episode's dubious decision to represent gay people oppressed by straight people with cishet people oppressed by non-binary people. Sorry for all the going on a tangent. But coming back to the original issue, what I believe to see here is an intent to say something against conversion therapy, but perhaps not being clear enough about it, with probably both writer and higher-ups playing a part in that. And even TNG's single one "gay episode" being a showcase of one of the most unfortunate traits of Classic Trek.
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Post by simple on Mar 13, 2023 13:09:58 GMT
While the politics of it don’t stand up it is quite funny that Riker has such a powerful sexual aura that even a sexless, genderless alien from a sexless, genderless society wants to fuck him
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Post by RadicalRex on Mar 13, 2023 13:11:14 GMT
She did identify as female and heterosexual before she met him
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 14:00:12 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Mar 13, 2023 14:00:12 GMT
In regards to the non-gendered beings not being allowed, I think it's also just down to the find. NB folks weren't really something most people had any idea about, so it may have not even been considered.
At least nu-Trek has been inclusive of that, to mixed success.
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geefe
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 15:10:35 GMT
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Post by geefe on Mar 13, 2023 15:10:35 GMT
Yeah I mean it's 30+ years old. The idea of different gender identities didn't really exist.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 15:18:04 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Mar 13, 2023 15:18:04 GMT
If you want to talk about very deliberate decisions to tone down the gay, I am forever annoyed that Garak wasn't allowed to be the bisexual flirt that Andrew Robinson originally played him as.
He's still one of the very best characters in Trek, but he would have been even better.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 15:47:20 GMT
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Post by simple on Mar 13, 2023 15:47:20 GMT
Are Stamets and the doctor from Discovery the first real definitely gay characters on Star Trek?
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 16:09:33 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Mar 13, 2023 16:09:33 GMT
Certainly in the main cast. At least as far as I can recall.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 16:11:41 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Mar 13, 2023 16:11:41 GMT
Bashir and O'Brien don't count.
Have to love the "I do like Ezri... But I like you more" comment from Bashir though.
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Post by RadicalRex on Mar 13, 2023 16:39:31 GMT
In regards to the non-gendered beings not being allowed, I think it's also just down to the find. NB folks weren't really something most people had any idea about, so it may have not even been considered. That's true, but the idea of genderless/androgynous alien species certainly was around. What I was trying to say is that there seem to have been different attitudes: Jeri Taylor envisioning an androgynous species as very beautiful, those responsible for their look in the episode apparently rejecting that idea. It seems to me like a mindset that binary man/woman is the be all and end all even in alien species (hell, even in androids), and that being neither is a flaw/imperfection.
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Post by RadicalRex on Mar 13, 2023 16:52:21 GMT
Are Stamets and the doctor from Discovery the first real definitely gay characters on Star Trek? Sulu shown with his partner in Star Trek Beyond (2016) was the first, shortly before Discovery (2017). Prior to that, to my knowledge the mere existence of gay people had never even been mentioned on-screen. Off-screen, Gene Roddenberry confirmed the existence of gay people in the TMP novelisation (there may have been other instances, but it's the one I know of, and probably the "most official", given that it's written by Gene). It's an awkward section explaining that fan theories about Kirk and Spock being a couple were untrue, however Kirk does emphasise that being gay is perfectly fine and notably he's not offended by being mistaken for gay. It reads awkwardly today, but considering it was 1979 I guess that was pretty progressive. And it was 37 years before on-screen Trek did it.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 17:00:44 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Mar 13, 2023 17:00:44 GMT
There was the "lesbian" kiss in DS9 but it didn't really count because Dax was, iirc, under control of a previous male host? Something like that.
Whilst a bit handwavy you can say the same about the interracial kiss in TOS as the characters were not in control.
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Post by RadicalRex on Mar 13, 2023 17:11:39 GMT
Yeah, it's because apparently they have still feelings from the (heterosexual) relationship between their former hosts. By Classic Trek standards that's pretty bold, but still no case of someone simply being gay.
Mirror Kira may deserve a mention because she seems to have the hots for her prime counterpart. I believe that's the closest Classic Trek ever got, but of course only in the form of the depraved bisexual evil queen trope. No gays/bis in the prime universe though.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 17:17:18 GMT
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Post by simple on Mar 13, 2023 17:17:18 GMT
I’m not sure the mirror universe should properly count since its all weirdly horny queer coding of villains as an empire of predatory bisexuals at best. I guess technically that would make them queer characters but its not exactly there for any good reason.
I’d forgotten about Sulu in the new movies. I guess that does make him first. Although lets face it, Sulu or Stamets its still way too late for them to be catching up with it
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geefe
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 17:18:34 GMT
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Post by geefe on Mar 13, 2023 17:18:34 GMT
It's fairly well known that Gene was all aboard the ethnic diversity train but he left his gender equality car at home.
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Star Trek
Mar 13, 2023 17:23:29 GMT
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Post by drhickman1983 on Mar 13, 2023 17:23:29 GMT
I do think mirror Kira is troublesome as the evil bisexual is not a great trope, but I really loved the performance and found her very alluring.
Tbh I also find Captain Angel in SNW similarly alluring. I guess I just find evil queer characters sexy whatever their gender. (that may indicate I'm less than entirely straight myself, and I'm okay with that.)
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