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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 11, 2021 9:16:09 GMT
I've been thinking a lot about what pulls me in to a games world. What is it that suspends my disbelief? What is it that gives a game a real sense of place? I'm increasingly convinced it's not improvement in technology with many of stunning games released today feeling "Hollow" despite looking more and more life-like. Games like Resident Evil and Final Fantasy 7 with their chunky character models and blurry pre rendered backgrounds still feel more real, more alive and interesting than many games of today. Half life two has a feel and tone that invests me in its world and characters more than many of the AAA games I've played more recently. This is in spite of the fact Gordon levitates up ladders and steers vehicles presumably with his mind. Games from 8 bit computers like the C64 and the Speccy still hold a certain something with their limited colours and sound design allowing the player to fill in the blanks that can prove just as absorbing at least to me. What do you fine folks think about this topic? What is it the makes a game feel immersive, believable? and what would you list if you were to pick games that really pulled you in?
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Duffman5
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Post by Duffman5 on Sept 11, 2021 9:20:14 GMT
I would assume nostalgia ? I think games ar now far more immersive and I have been here since the Vic20 days!!! The sound alone when wearing a headset can be amazing. In fact that would be the one sense I would say brings the most immersion.
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 11, 2021 9:23:34 GMT
I would assume nostalgia ? I think games ar now far more immersive and I have been here since the Vic20 days!!! The sound alone when wearing a headset can be amazing. In fact that would be the one sense I would say brings the most immersion. It's not nostalgia for me but I can understand that response. I would agree with you that sound is a big part. I find games with ambient sounds and space between the big set piece melodies really works for me. Breath of the Wild is a good example. If you were to recommend one super immersive modern game what would you pick?
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Post by convercide on Sept 11, 2021 9:24:41 GMT
Grand Theft Auto 6? *shrug*
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 11, 2021 9:28:33 GMT
The time jump in Half-Life 2 killed the immersion for me. I don't think I even finished it
Sound is really important for immersion; your imagination can fill in the gaps if graphics aren't the best but bad sound is just bad. It's why games like the original Thief games and System Shock 2 are still so good
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 11, 2021 9:35:58 GMT
I'm trying to think of the last more modern game that really pulled me in was. I'm on the fence with the look of the early next gen stuff, that sheen over everything is quite off putting. Breath of the Wild certainly pulled me in to it's world. The Uncharted and LOU games did a pretty good job. I'm really interested to hear what others say and suggest.
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Duffman5
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Post by Duffman5 on Sept 11, 2021 9:39:08 GMT
I would assume nostalgia ? I think games ar now far more immersive and I have been here since the Vic20 days!!! The sound alone when wearing a headset can be amazing. In fact that would be the one sense I would say brings the most immersion. It's not nostalgia for me but I can understand that response. I would agree with you that sound is a big part. I find games with ambient sounds and space between the big set piece melodies really works for me. Breath of the Wild is a good example. If you were to recommend one super immersive modern game what would you pick? Hi mate Very subjective depending on genre. If you are going to pin me down, maybe EGttR. I am a child of the eighties (born in 72 and in Hampshire) so I can totally identify with the fear (for us it was Nuclear war being mentioned every day almost!) of loss, isolation and the world that TCR created. "my" BMX was even in it, also that soundtrack by Jessica Curry is amazing.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 11, 2021 9:42:38 GMT
Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines is another great example of immersion and excellent sound. The voice acting is still some of the absolute best I've ever heard in a game and made the characters feel real. There have been times I remember a conversation I've had with someone and not be able to place it, then realise it was just something from VtMB. The entire tone of that game was perfect
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 11, 2021 9:44:06 GMT
It's not nostalgia for me but I can understand that response. I would agree with you that sound is a big part. I find games with ambient sounds and space between the big set piece melodies really works for me. Breath of the Wild is a good example. If you were to recommend one super immersive modern game what would you pick? Hi mate Very subjective depending on genre. If you are going to pin me down, maybe EGttR. I am a child of the eighties (born in 72 and in Hampshire) so I can totally identify with the fear (for us it was Nuclear war being mentioned every day almost!) of loss, isolation and the world that TCR created. "my" BMX was even in it, also that soundtrack by Jessica Curry is amazing. thats a game I've been meaning to get around to. It's also reminded me that What Remains of Edith Finch would be a more modern pick for me.
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Post by dfunked on Sept 11, 2021 9:45:28 GMT
Not at all. I've been playing Axiom Verge at the moment and that's every bit as immersive as a modern graphical showcase.
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 11, 2021 9:49:19 GMT
Not at all. I've been playing Axiom Verge at the moment and that's every bit as immersive as a modern graphical showcase. I remember thinking "The Way" was pretty good if only the game underneath wasn't so maddening.
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Post by steellam on Sept 11, 2021 10:05:41 GMT
I would assume nostalgia ? I think games ar now far more immersive and I have been here since the Vic20 days!!! The sound alone when wearing a headset can be amazing. In fact that would be the one sense I would say brings the most immersion. It's not nostalgia for me but I can understand that response. I would agree with you that sound is a big part. I find games with ambient sounds and space between the big set piece melodies really works for me. Breath of the Wild is a good example. If you were to recommend one super immersive modern game what would you pick? Sound plays a huge part for me immersion wise, half life 2 definitely springs to mind immediately as a great example.
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Post by Zuluhero on Sept 11, 2021 10:09:18 GMT
I think the harder a world tries to be realistic, the easier it is for it to break my immersion.
If I look at a sky box, or a vista, and feel like I'm box, then it really breaks the illusion.
I like worlds that establish their own sense of place and their own rules, and feel lived in. It also helps if their geography and layout makes sense, so Hollow Knight works for me, as the connections between location work. Equally, the world felt lived in, even though it is a city destroyed, with infrastructure and things the people - bugs - would have used in their day-to-day lives.
The SoulsBourne games are the same, they are clearly fantastical, but how the connect between areas and the sense of world and geography work really well. Ofc, the lore and world building through environmental storytelling or items helps too!
Games like the Division 1, which looked great at a glance were broken for me with doors placed on external walls that clearly didn't go anywhere and wouldn't be used.
The only time that the Souls games almost broke the rule for me, was revisiting Anor Londo in DS3. I get the fan service angle, but DS1s world didn't fit with the wider geography hinted at in the series, with the new link to DS3.
Anyway, tl;Dr if a world breaks its own rules or if I can see past the illusion of being in a massive world, then it breaks immersion and I find it very hard to push through it.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Sept 11, 2021 10:14:36 GMT
Race in VR when using iRacing, certainly not got a top end rig running settings maxed, but still feel so much more immersed from when I raced on a single monitor, not even close
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Post by djronz on Sept 11, 2021 10:19:49 GMT
Race in VR when using iRacing, certainly not got a top end rig running settings maxed, but still feel so much more immersed from when I raced on a single monitor, not even close Yep, VR currently can't match the detail and resolutions of standard gaming but even on my psvr with a basic look g game like ultra wings, the sense of immersion is way higher than the most detailed non VR game to me. The sense of scale, depth, height and feeling of actually being in the game world simply can't be replicated on a flat screen no matter how good graphics become.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 11, 2021 10:23:18 GMT
I think the reason Bethesda RPGs are so popular is because they're just not very good but leave everything open enough that players can imprint whatever they want on them. They rely heavily on the "it's your own adventure" angle and give just enough for a spring board for your own imagination. People love having a virtual world to get lost/invest themselves in
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Sept 11, 2021 10:31:05 GMT
From Software games as well, whatever they do with sound design is voodoo, sense of place and melancholy it induces in me is palpable (or it might just be I died on a boss for the 50th time)
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hedben
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Post by hedben on Sept 11, 2021 10:35:29 GMT
I'm not sure I understand what immersion is. I can forget the real world playing Tetris or Wipeout 2097 or, more recently, Hades. That's not about being super realistic, it's about gameplay that puts you in "the zone" where you feel like you're not even thinking about what to do, you're just doing it.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Sept 11, 2021 10:41:43 GMT
The Zone is probably a good way to put it. AA's was a good example, Bethesda's games get you in that Zone, or did anyway.
Football Manager is that game for me, its basically a spreadsheet but I have lost years of my life in that zone.
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sig
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Post by sig on Sept 11, 2021 10:42:52 GMT
Anyway, tl;Dr if a world breaks its own rules or if I can see past the illusion of being in a massive world, then it breaks immersion and I find it very hard to push through it. Yeah I agree, suspension of disbelief is only broken when the internal rules a piece of media has set up is broken instead of any inconsistencies compared to the real world. Also, a lot of games that were realistic years ago now just seem kinda dated and bland, so I wonder how today's realistic games will hold up years later. (I assume better than any "realistic" PS2 games, but who knows)
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 11, 2021 11:22:06 GMT
I think the harder a world tries to be realistic, the easier it is for it to break my immersion. If I look at a sky box, or a vista, and feel like I'm box, then it really breaks the illusion. I like worlds that establish their own sense of place and their own rules, and feel lived in. It also helps if their geography and layout makes sense, so Hollow Knight works for me, as the connections between location work. Equally, the world felt lived in, even though it is a city destroyed, with infrastructure and things the people - bugs - would have used in their day-to-day lives. The SoulsBourne games are the same, they are clearly fantastical, but how the connect between areas and the sense of world and geography work really well. Ofc, the lire and world building through environmental storytelling or items helps too! Games like the Division 1, which looked great at a glance were broken for me with doors placed on external walls that clearly didn't go anywhere and wouldn't be used. The only time that the Souls games almost broke the rule for me, was revisiting Anor Londo in DS3. I get the fan service angle, but DS1s world didn't fit with the wider geography hinted at in the series. Anyway, tl;Dr if a world breaks its own rules or if I can see past the illusion of being in a massive world, then it breaks immersion and I find it very hard to push through it. I think this sums it up perfectly for me too
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Worlds
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Post by Worlds on Sept 11, 2021 16:14:35 GMT
The outlined items (for that object throwing ability) in Control destroyed the immersion for me. Stuff like that pisses me off.
Also, too many cut scenes. I just want to play.
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Post by LegendaryApe on Sept 11, 2021 19:05:36 GMT
The original Deus Ex.
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Post by RadicalRex on Sept 11, 2021 20:39:36 GMT
I think realistic graphics is usually one of the lesser concerns for immersion. Quake 1 looks like crap but the soundtrack makes it come to life, and thanks to that it's one of the most immersive shooters I know. Super Metroid is still super immersive and that game doesn't even push SNES hardware.
Unrealistic, stylised graphics can even serve the immersion, I'm thinking of e.g. Limbo, Outer Wilds, Hollow Knight. Giving those games more realistic graphics would actually hurt the immersion in my opinion. Saints Row 3's characters were on the sweet spot between comical and realistic for the tone of the game, the more realistic look of the remaster actually makes it less immersive to me.
Zuluhero mentioned doors, which is an excellent point. In Skyrim, if there's a door, there's something behind it, it's really rare to find a door that's actually just a texture on a wall and that makes it feel more real. In Fallout 4, there are many houses that can't be entered, and knowing that they're just big blocks with textures slapped on them makes the game feel more game-y and less immersive. Higher-detailed graphics don't make up for that if you ask me.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Sept 11, 2021 21:20:53 GMT
realistic graphics are definitely not important to immersion. Nor is realism necessarily a detriment to immersion.
But whether or not it's aiming for realism, I think the art direction is more important.
It's easier for "realistic" games to do break that immersion. NPCs or whatever getting caught on walls and scenery, or bugs here and there can pull you out of the moment very easily. The closer to realism a game is, the easier it becomes for those kind of bugs to really become noticeable.
*actually* there are a handful of games where I find less realistic graphics more immersive. If I think back to older RPGS, for example, the SNES and PS1 Final Fantasy games. I'm thinking text dialogue rather than fully voiced; vague animations used to imply characters are doing stuff rather than being able to explicitly see what they're doing; exaggerated poses to convey key emotions of characters rather than facial animations.
I think those approaches actually draw me in as I'm having to engage my imagination to fill the gaps that the technological restraints created. Because I'm having to use my imagination I sometimes feel closer to what's going on.
or maybe it's just because I grew up in that era.
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Post by steifybobbins on Sept 12, 2021 8:33:24 GMT
The last two comments are great examples of what I was trying to get at and precisely why a lot of big AAA games really don't work for me lately. I was genuinely wondering if I was just getting old and jaded but perhaps I'm not.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 12, 2021 8:48:56 GMT
I've found it harder to get immersed since the days where every bit of dialogue has to be voice acted. It should be the opposite, but I find there's a lot of "George, you can write this shit, but you can't say it" stuff going on. So when NPCs say stuff out aloud, it sounds really fucking dumb, with only a few exceptions. Witcher 3, basically, or maybe Mass Effect.
Which doesn't have much to do with graphics, but hey ho. Immersion is a tricksy thing.
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 12, 2021 9:01:43 GMT
Oh! And the other thing (which again has nothing to do with visuals) is when NPCs all react to me walking by. Sometimes it makes sense (again, Witcher 3), but when I'm walking through a town and everyone is yelling at me trying to sell me things or give me quests... it breaks my immersion!
Which again should be the opposite. But when you're walking through a town in, say, Skyrim, the realistic thing would be to have people not caring who get fuck you are. Just going about their daily business, not interrupting you to tell you about how nobody takes them seriously as a blacksmith because they're a woman. Nobody would bring this up in a conversation with a stranger!
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Lukus
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Post by Lukus on Sept 12, 2021 9:11:02 GMT
You don't speak for all female blacksmiths pal
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MolarAm🔵
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Sept 12, 2021 9:29:28 GMT
Yes I do
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