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Post by clemfandango on Dec 12, 2023 8:35:52 GMT
I’m not sure how anybody can take pride in being English anymore.
I’m very proud of being Mancunian though, which I suppose is very contradictory….
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Post by elstoof on Dec 12, 2023 8:47:31 GMT
you could argue that the UK and US should take an isolationist view and stay out of things (as russia and china do) Eh? |
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Dec 12, 2023 8:53:21 GMT
I used to be proud of a nation that reinvented itself after the miserable 70s to a country that was open to the world it had shaped through right and wrong at the heart of a European Union it's self created from misery. That has all been ripped up pretty damn fast.
Growing up my dad (immigrant) always used to root for anyone that played against England, he used to always say he refused support a country that had done so much harm to the world. I always considered that to be a little stupid, "you live here don't you?, why did you come here?" etc..
I can see my dad's point of view now that the rosy picture I built up of this country has been ripped up.
Ironically I'm not ashamed of us for what we've done to the rest of the world but what we've done to ourselves.
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Post by Chopsen on Dec 12, 2023 8:54:50 GMT
I’m not sure how anybody can take pride in being English anymore. These days you get arrested and thrown in jail if you say you're English |
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Dec 12, 2023 9:10:45 GMT
Just for saying you're English?
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Post by Chopsen on Dec 12, 2023 9:11:51 GMT
Yeah. These days.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 12, 2023 9:13:36 GMT
I suppose its like the slightly disingenous 'why is it ok to fly the scotland flag but not the england flag?' questions in that patriotism has been hijacked for the culture wars and the well has been poisoned. If you say 'I'm proud to be English' nobody would think youre referring to the great works of Isambard Kingdom Brunel or the rolling fields of heather in the yorkshire moors, just that you are a narrow-minded bigot who hates foreigners and poor people.
Same with 'Woke', really. It doesnt match its dictionary definition anymore if it means anything at all.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Dec 12, 2023 9:33:11 GMT
you could argue that the UK and US should take an isolationist view and stay out of things (as russia and china do) Eh? Doh. What I meant to say was 'as Russia and China continually say we should do' (though they don't really do as they say) |
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kal
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Post by kal on Dec 12, 2023 9:34:37 GMT
It’s essentially semiotics. It’s something we’re all conditioned to understand but most aren’t really conscious of it.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 12, 2023 9:37:41 GMT
Good old Barthes (not that one)
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Post by Bill in the rain on Dec 12, 2023 9:37:44 GMT
I can't think of 1 truly altruistic thing a nation has ever done. While this is true in the big picture sense, it doesn't mean they don't do altruistic things on a smaller scale or in specific circumstances.
Lots of countries send rescue teams etc... after big disasters, for example.
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2023 9:44:09 GMT
I suppose its like the slightly disingenous 'why is it ok to fly the scotland flag but not the england flag?' questions in that patriotism has been hijacked for the culture wars and the well has been poisoned. If you say 'I'm proud to be English' nobody would think youre referring to the great works of Isambard Kingdom Brunel or the rolling fields of heather in the yorkshire moors, just that you are a narrow-minded bigot who hates foreigners and poor people. Same with 'Woke', really. It doesnt match its dictionary definition anymore if it means anything at all. This is what I was trying to say the other day too. I suppose you could frame it as English nationalism punches down whereas Scottish nationalism punches up too. But if you listen to the general tone of what comes from Scots or Welsh nationalists its all about the land and the artistic and technological achievements of the people who live there or have moved there to call it home. Whereas English nationalism is all about saying fuck off if you’re not the same as me, and since the political default is English conservatism British nationalism follows suit. Although curiously, English regional pride - particularly in the north and south west/Cornish nationalism - seems closer to the civic nationalism you see in Wales and Scotland, albeit slightly less well defined and more tribal in nature. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 12, 2023 9:52:10 GMT
As far as I can see a lot/most of home nation nationalism centers purely on 'fuck the english'.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Dec 12, 2023 9:55:03 GMT
It sometimes feels like you only have two options in England.
- Be proud of England in the nationalist football-hooligan kinda way,
- or be critical and negative and somewhat ashamed of being English.
It doesn't seem to be an issue in other countries (from my limited experience)
I guess it's a hangover from empire, and from England's position in the UK compared to the other nations.
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otto
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Post by otto on Dec 12, 2023 10:01:39 GMT
Believe me it's an issue in other countries.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 12, 2023 10:02:12 GMT
I have said it half jokingly before but we are never going to fix this country without getting rid of the royal family. They are responsible for some of the worst brain worms this country has to offer and represent the absolute worst in us. A hideous totem of everything wrong with our society, helping maintain our weird 'peasants and masters' mentality.
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2023 10:24:09 GMT
As far as I can see a lot/most of home nation nationalism centers purely on 'fuck the english'. England’s history of violence and oppression doesn’t really do it many favours with the other home nations. But I do think there’s a more general optimism in their nationalism than there is in English nationalism. |
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Post by Chopsen on Dec 12, 2023 10:34:39 GMT
Although curiously, English regional pride - particularly in the north and south west/Cornish nationalism - seems closer to the civic nationalism you see in Wales and Scotland, albeit slightly less well defined and more tribal in nature. "Civic" nationalism is a myth. |
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Dec 12, 2023 10:40:42 GMT
I have said it half jokingly before but we are never going to fix this country without getting rid of the royal family. They are responsible for some of the worst brain worms this country has to offer and represent the absolute worst in us. A hideous totem of everything wrong with our society, helping maintain our weird 'peasants and masters' mentality. To an extent, but I'd say Charles and some (SOME) of the current lot do go right against that grain. The system isn't good but the individuals we currently have are, to my mind, both the most down to earth and most likely to just fold the whole thing. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 12, 2023 11:08:41 GMT
You are insane. How can a man who wears a hat worth more than your entire town be down to earth?
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Post by Bill in the rain on Dec 12, 2023 11:12:09 GMT
The conservatives are making the royals look very good by comparison.
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2023 11:13:32 GMT
Although curiously, English regional pride - particularly in the north and south west/Cornish nationalism - seems closer to the civic nationalism you see in Wales and Scotland, albeit slightly less well defined and more tribal in nature. "Civic" nationalism is a myth. Is there a better word for ‘not EDL nutter nationalism’ to describe the way its expressed in those nations via their political parties and established civic institutions? (not being an arse, I genuinely don’t know but feel like we do need a word since there is a qualitative difference between them) |
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 12, 2023 11:16:13 GMT
"Civic" nationalism is a myth. Is there a better word for ‘not EDL nutter nationalism’ to describe the way its expressed in those nations via their political parties and established civic institutions? (not being an arse, I genuinely don’t know but feel like we do need a word since there is a qualitative difference between them) Nuts are an allergy, how about "hypoallergenic nationalism"? /hj |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 12, 2023 11:18:45 GMT
The conservatives are making the royals look very good by comparison. This ties in with what I mean by peasant mentality. We are ruled by our privately educated betters and accept what anyone with an RP accent tells us as gospel. |
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Dec 12, 2023 11:19:05 GMT
You are insane. How can a man who wears a hat worth more than your entire town be down to earth? Look at the wording - the most down to earth of them. I'd also suggest that's their uniform. He doesn't CHOOSE to wear that hat. If he chose opulence then it's a different story. I can imagine that I've got more in common with Charles than thousands of trust fund kids, footballers, etc. |
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sport✅
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Post by sport✅ on Dec 12, 2023 11:19:40 GMT
I have said it half jokingly before but we are never going to fix this country without getting rid of the royal family. They are responsible for some of the worst brain worms this country has to offer and represent the absolute worst in us. A hideous totem of everything wrong with our society, helping maintain our weird 'peasants and masters' mentality. To an extent, but I'd say Charles and some (SOME) of the current lot do go right against that grain. The system isn't good but the individuals we currently have are, to my mind, both the most down to earth and most likely to just fold the whole thing. Very much a king of the people www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/23/revealed-king-charles-secretly-profiting-from-the-assets-of-dead-citizens |
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2023 11:25:01 GMT
The character that was based on him in House of Cards was pretty active politically standing up to a villain
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kal
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Post by kal on Dec 12, 2023 11:29:13 GMT
I have said it half jokingly before but we are never going to fix this country without getting rid of the royal family. They are responsible for some of the worst brain worms this country has to offer and represent the absolute worst in us. A hideous totem of everything wrong with our society, helping maintain our weird 'peasants and masters' mentality. To an extent, but I'd say Charles and some (SOME) of the current lot do go right against that grain. The system isn't good but the individuals we currently have are, to my mind, both the most down to earth and most likely to just fold the whole thing. Some of the world’s best and most expensive PR consultants are doing a decent job apparently. |
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kal
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Post by kal on Dec 12, 2023 11:30:52 GMT
I can’t see the Royal Family being abolished any time soon but I do wonder whether at some point they will be set up to effectively run as a business and no longer be state funded. We’re constantly told that they bring in more money than they cost as justification for their continuation, so it shouldn’t be an issue.
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Post by Chopsen on Dec 12, 2023 11:32:15 GMT
Is there a better word for ‘not EDL nutter nationalism’ to describe the way its expressed in those nations via their political parties and established civic institutions? (not being an arse, I genuinely don’t know but feel like we do need a word since there is a qualitative difference between them) Nuts are an allergy, how about "hypoallergenic nationalism"? /hj Well, this way semantics lie, and words have multiple meanings and you can chose the one that most aligns with what you believe and makes you look good. I'm not the arbiter.
But....that's not what most people mean by civic nationalism, fwiw. The civic bit is to signify that you're still tolerant and progressive, while at the same time working from the axiom that national identity has primacy as a political concept. I think that's horseshit, personally, as any political ideology based on identity involves having an out group, and as soon as you have that human psychology weaponises that as a heuristic for coping with reality and you end up with lines drawn in sand and someone else to blame for everything.
I would argue that the political assemblies of any nation in the does not represent the ultimate expression of that nation's culture. People are generally more moderate than the politicians they elect, and in England in particular FPTP fucks that up good and proper. (the old chestnut of Tories not even getting the majority of the vote *in England* despite having a 80 seat majority at the last GE).
EDLs might call themselves nationalists, but the issues they tackle and ideas they express make them ethnic nationalists specifically. Or, you know, racists.
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